That certainly is the first, reasonable-sounding impulse. I thought that way too until recently, when I read in the Federalist Papers why they did it they way they did.
The Electoral College idea is that we choose (elect) men we actually know (or could know if we wanted to) from our communities, people wise in affairs of state and policy, then let them choose the president.
That has a bunch of advantages, including letting people who are actually in that field pick the most able amongst themselves, someone they can know well, interview, interact with, etc. in a way that 315 million individuals never could.
As a concrete example, I made a point of talking to about a dozen candidates for school board and city council in the last election. I asked them questions, took their literature, but even then didn't feel comfortable I really knew who was truly suitable. Someone who already worked either with the candidates or in the same circles, however, would have a lot better knowledge. Such a person would know the issues and the candidates better than I ever could.
The electoral college also buffers popular rages, and adds a redundant safety plus some damping to the decision-making process.
Same thing for senators--the 17th Amendment (popular election of senators) was a mistake.
I still very much believe in the collective wisdom of the masses, but it helps a lot if the wisdom being collected is being distilled from an area in which the participants have some expertise. The people are wise in their affairs, statesmen are wise in affairs of state, and the EC interfaces the two.
The EC is essentially having the public elect a panel of experts, who then use their collective wisdom and expertise to select a president.
I pulled an all-nighter yesterday transcribing one of Gruber's presentations.
He speaks at 220+ words per minute delivering a canned presentation he's delivered many times before, to a trusting audience not prepared for the onslaught, cramming information too rapidly for his audience to absorb (or spot the zillions of obvious errors, flaws and contradictions).
(Example: with the cynical goal of eliminating the employer health insurance deduction by stealth, he rationalizes his "Cadillac tax"'s 40% rate on health benefits as exactly offsetting the employer deduction. No it doesn't--what employer pays 40% effective tax? It's b.s. His golden "Cadillac" tax stealth-taxes (part of) union workers' pay at the billionaires' rate, our highest marginal rate.)
(Example: even as "Grubbels" insists it isn't a government takeover, he describes how it'll limit how doctors are allowed to organize and associate; prescribe the sorts of business models they can try; seeks to establish control of the division of labor in health delivery (to ensure the person who performs your service is not 'over-skilled'); reward certain types of physicians at others' expense...and that's just a tiny sample. He describes total government control over private individuals and businesses, and characterizes it as "not a government takeover.")
He's a stereotypical big-government mastermind. We're all just flies under his microscope, and he's really just not that bright.
P.S. But, he /was/ paid millions of Obamacare dollars personally, for his AGW-style Obamacare computer model and its crystal-ball predictions.
Your idea of a stereotypocal government mastermind is merely somebody who d oesn't share your minimalist approach to government.
It's difficult to take you seriously when you complain bitterly that Obamca re is making American medical care even more expensive, when the basic prob lem is that American health care is half again as expensive per head as any body elses, no better for the fully insured than the best of the competitiv e universal health care schemes are for everybody, and vile for the less th an fully insured.
Step back for once, and think about the real issue - you pay too much for t he health care you get, and your health insurance doesn't cover about 15% o f the population. Some of the uninsured are just improvident, but 9% can't afford it and about half of them are ineligible due to pre-existing conditi ons - Obamacare was supposed to have fixed that, but Wikipedia doesn't seem to be convinced.
formatting link
Every other advanced industrial country does better, but you can't. Care to think about why?
I live out in the boonies a bit south of Kennett Square , Pa. Kennett Squa re is the Mushroom capital of the U.S. If you want demographic indices, lo ok them up. You have access to the internet.
I might remind you that you have not produced any evidence to suapport your assertion. Yet you act as if you have. A True Believer.
If you thought about it at all, you would see it is an article to appeal to Australians. But it is obvious that it is not likely to be true. The elec tion process is watched closely by both parties. Anything that was close t o rigging the voting process would be protested by the other party. Each pa rty can have observers at every polling place. Most of the voting is done by voting machine and only takes about a minute. The last time I worked at a polling place, there were two machines. The polls were open from 7 in t he morning to 8 at night or 13 hours. If it takes say 90 seconds to vote,( which is stretching it ) then 1040 people could vote during those hours. I think there vere about 350 people that voted. The precinct's are dra wn so they have close to the same number of voters. So each precinct has way more capacity for voting than is used. Each polling place has two judges t o rule on any problems that arise. The judges have to be of different part ies.
Incidently I have never seen any problems that had to be resolved. Also h ere it is required to have picture id to vote. If you do not have picture id you can cast a provisional ballot which is used if any race is close eno ugh that it could make a difference. I hase not ever seen a provisional ba llet used.
And my experience is not just in the state I now live in. I have lived on both coasts in both the North and South and in Alaska. So five states.
Meanwhile you have not ever been at the polls in the U.S.
post here would have seen short or non-existent poll queues.
So ask here if anyone has seen a queue of more that 5 people at a polling p lace.
US is the most unequal advanced industrial country around
But of advanced industrial countries, it is one of the easiest to move bot h up and down.
ng the country in a way that suits them since 1788 - and queue lengths at p olling stations are just one of the many tricks they use to look after thei r interests.
That is exactly what I have been telling you. Queue lengths at polling plac es is pretty much non existent.
You have no direct knowledge of the voting process in the U.S. and yet you think you know more than people who have actually voted in the U.S.
doesn't share your minimalist approach to government.
care is making American medical care even more expensive, when the basic pr oblem is that American health care is half again as expensive per head as a nybody elses, no better for the fully insured than the best of the competit ive universal health care schemes are for everybody, and vile for the less than fully insured.
It's difficult to take you seriously when you respond without study.
If as you say 1) "the basic problem is that American health care [costs more than it ought to]" which is absolutely correct, and
2) the Obamacare takeover "is making American medical care even more expensive"
which it most certainly does, why wouldn't everyone complain? It's making things worse.
What on earth makes you presume to think I haven't thought about it, or tha t my information or thinking is inferior to yours? I've spent thousands of hours on it and with some of the best minds in the country, too.
Yours is Gruber's arrogance, but in a central-planning official his is dead ly.
oesn't cover about 15% of the population. Some of the uninsured are just im provident, but 9% can't afford it and about half of them are ineligible due to pre-existing conditions - Obamacare was supposed to have fixed that, bu t Wikipedia doesn't seem to be convinced.
to think about why?
I know perfectly well why--I've studied it. It's mostly a result of practices Obamacare puts into mass production. Central-planning, third-party payers, moral hazard, etc. Government-spawned.
As Gruber--the Administration's darling until caught out--makes plain.
I've always thought the best solution is dated to Roman times... more fat (wealthy) in office than before, you die >:-} ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
ho doesn't share your minimalist approach to government.
amcare is making American medical care even more expensive, when the basic problem is that American health care is half again as expensive per head as anybody elses, no better for the fully insured than the best of the compet itive universal health care schemes are for everybody, and vile for the les s than fully insured.
If I studied and mastered the data that you present and dig up I still woul dn't be able to persuade you that your view of that data is blinkered to th e point of uselessness. You can take the brain-washed to data, but you can' t make them think.
I'm by no means convinced that it is making it more expensive, but since it 's aim is to make it accessible to more people, not to make it cheaper, thi s is irrelevant.
hat
adly.
Whereas your is Friedman's arrogance - the idea that the mathematically con venient assumption that the free market is perfect can be reified into the principle that world should be run as if the free market always delivered t he perfect outcome.
You can't comprehend that free market needs a certain measure of government control to keep it out of its areas of instability, and you confuse that l evel of government intervention with soviet-style central planning and cont rol.
doesn't cover about 15% of the population. Some of the uninsured are just improvident, but 9% can't afford it and about half of them are ineligible d ue to pre-existing conditions - Obamacare was supposed to have fixed that, but Wikipedia doesn't seem to be convinced.
e to think about why?
Yet every other advanced industrial country has a centrally regulated healt h care system (mostly based on that arch-radical Bismark's national insuran ce system) with lots of third-party payment, and gets their health care at two thirds of the price per head.
Clearly, Obamacare ought to be making your system cheaper, rather than more expensive. The fact that it isn't reflects the fact that your political sy stem is well-designed to allow people with lots of money to buy outcomes th at make them even more money, at everybody else's expense.
The US Gini index - at 0.48 - is now higher than even China's - at 0.421 an d is way too high for an advanced industrial country. Most of the others co mes in around 0.3 and Scandinavia comes in at 0.25.
James Arthur takes pride in seeing stuff that isn't obvious to everybody el se (and mostly doesn't exist), but he fails to see a lot more stuff that is obvious to everybody else.
The UK wasn't - they'd been bombed, but nowhere near as much as Germany. Th eir healthcare system is slightly spartan, but delivers better health care
- averaged over the whole population - to the whole UK population at half t he cost per head of the US system.
The Netherlands and France weren't "knee deep in rubble" while Germany was, but all three are now in better economic shape than the UK. Canada was nev er bombed, and Australia wasn't bombed enough to signify.
Their Gini index is 0.337 - highish for an advanced industrial country, but not pathological like the US at 0.48, and their health spending per head i s on the high end of the European range - as you'd expect, since they are r ich, like Norway that spends a fraction more - but they look much more like every other rich advanced industrial country except the US, rather than "m ore like the US".
uare is the Mushroom capital of the U.S. If you want demographic indices, look them up. You have access to the internet.
r assertion. Yet you act as if you have. A True Believer.
I did point out that the Republicans have been working on minimising the De mocrat turn-out for many years, and reminded you of the most obvious - and best documented - example, when Jeb Bush stole Florida for his brother in 2
000.
If you knew what you were talking about, as opposed to producing the knee-j erk "The USA are perfect", you'd be well aware of the evidence. It's been a round for years.
to
ection process is watched closely by both parties. Anything that was close to rigging the voting process would be protested by the other party.
It is, and the Democrats do protest regularly.
is done by voting machine and only takes about a minute. The last time I worked at a polling place, there were two machines. The polls were open fr om 7 in the morning to 8 at night or 13 hours. If it takes say 90 seconds to vote,( which is stretching it ) then 1040 people could vote during those hours. I think there were about 350 people that voted. The precinct's ar e drawn so they have close to the same number of voters.
Never heard of the gerrymander? A US invention. The word first appeared in the Boston Gazette on 26 March 1812.
ling place has two judges to rule on any problems that arise. The judges h ave to be of different parties.
So how come it didn't work in the precincts that Sydney Morning Herald repo rted about?
here it is required to have picture id to vote. If you do not have pictur e id you can cast a provisional ballot which is used if any race is close e nough that it could make a difference. I have not ever seen a provisional ballet used.
The "picture id" requirement does favour Republicans, and Democrats have pr otested it in a number of cases.
n both coasts in both the North and South and in Alaska. So five states.
Never. I was one of the Labour scrutineers at a counting station in Cambrid ge in 1992 but I've never been that close to the action in Australia.
It doesn't vitiate my argument.
o post here would have seen short or non-existent poll queues.
place.
Why bother? To want to post here implies a relatively expensive education.
he US is the most unequal advanced industrial country around
oth up and down.
This is a myth. It might have been true when the Horatio Alger stories were written, but the US now happens to be the advanced industrial country wher e it is hardest to move up or down. In the US, income is now more heritable than height.
formatting link
ost_Always_Do_Better
ning the country in a way that suits them since 1788 - and queue lengths at polling stations are just one of the many tricks they use to look after th eir interests.
aces is pretty much non existent.
In the place where you live ...
u think you know more than people who have actually voted in the U.S.
I clearly know more than you. "Direct knowledge" isn't a practical way of f inding out how the electoral process is being abused. Nobody could visit ev ery precint in the US to see what was going on on one election night.
So you want to restrict comment to only those who have seen electoral queue s with their own eyes? This would suit the people who engineer long queues in precincts where most of the voters are likely to vote Democrat.
The UK took until 1955ish to get back to some semblance of a normal daily life for people - even then , it was pretty grim.
I used "rubble" metaphorically. It should not be difficult to discern what I meant.
... but was heavily coupled to the rest of the Commonwealth... Australia was a lot peopled by Scots who moved there in that time frame.
This is why this happened. Accept it, and move on. Americans spent more on health care because they can afford it.
Get the people who make your argument to work on the concept of "health care is a public good" and plan accordingly. It isn't - quite - but that's the right strategy. It has the marque of a privately supplied but publicly consumed good.
..also in the Commonwealth...
GINI is basically congruent to the alpha parameter of a Pareto distribution. Using it to mean "inequality" ignores much detail about poverty.
The whole discussion is radically incoherent and good evidence of a depth of mathematical illiteracy that's going to be hard to fix.
our assertion. Yet you act as if you have. A True Believer.
Democrat turn-out for many years, and reminded you of the most obvious - an d best documented - example, when Jeb Bush stole Florida for his brother in 2000.
If you consider that evidence, you have no idea of what evidence is.
-jerk "The USA are perfect", you'd be well aware of the evidence. It's been around for years.
I have never said the U.S. is perfect. But you still have not produced any evidence.
l to
election process is watched closely by both parties. Anything that was clo se to rigging the voting process would be protested by the other party.
An assertion ,but no actual evidence.
ng is done by voting machine and only takes about a minute. The last time I worked at a polling place, there were two machines. The polls were open from 7 in the morning to 8 at night or 13 hours. If it takes say 90 second s to vote,( which is stretching it ) then 1040 people could vote during tho se hours. I think there were about 350 people that voted. The precinct's are drawn so they have close to the same number of voters.
n the Boston Gazette on 26 March 1812.
And exactly what does gerrymandering have to do with queues at the polls. There is no logic to your throwing in that statement.
olling place has two judges to rule on any problems that arise. The judges have to be of different parties.
ported about?
Ah, you finally mentioned the name of the newspaper that carried the articl e. Now if you would just post the date of the article, I would be able to read the article and see what they are actually saying. I assume it was in the Sunday edition.
so here it is required to have picture id to vote. If you do not have pict ure id you can cast a provisional ballot which is used if any race is close enough that it could make a difference. I have not ever seen a provisiona l ballet used.
protested it in a number of cases.
The " picture id " requirement does not favor any particular party. And ag ain since this is in a state where the Democrats are in the majority and ar e the ones that voted for picture id along with the Republicans , I fail to see why they would protest. Well in fact, there have been no protests in my state. The protests have all occurred where there was reason to believe that there was some election rigging.
on both coasts in both the North and South and in Alaska. So five states.
idge in 1992 but I've never been that close to the action in Australia.
But you have not presented any arguments. Just assertions without any refe rence to facts.
who post here would have seen short or non-existent poll queues.
ng place.
.
And yet you post saying people that post here are ignorant.
the US is the most unequal advanced industrial country around
both up and down.
re written, but the US now happens to be the advanced industrial country wh ere it is hardest to move up or down. In the US, income is now more heritab le than height.
And yet I know a fair number of U.S. engineers that are millionaires along with other friends that went to college on scholarships and are now million aires.
lmost_Always_Do_Better
unning the country in a way that suits them since 1788 - and queue lengths at polling stations are just one of the many tricks they use to look after their interests.
places is pretty much non existent.
you think you know more than people who have actually voted in the U.S.
finding out how the electoral process is being abused. Nobody could visit every precint in the US to see what was going on on one election night.
But it is clearly obvious to the most casual observer that you know much le ss about the election process in the U.S. than I do.
ues with their own eyes? This would suit the people who engineer long queue s in precincts where most of the voters are likely to vote Democrat.
You do realize that where most of the voters are likely to be Democrats, t he local government is run by the Democrats. Do try to think. But if you w ant to ask in other news groups about queues , feel free to do so.
Rationing persisted in the UK after WW2. When the Conservatives won the Oct ober 1951 election it was on the promise of getting rid of rationing, but i t took them until 1954 to actually manage it. When an economy has been on a war footing for six years, and then involved in keeping mainland Europe al ive in the aftermath of that war, it takes a while to get back to normal.
What you meant was "the US is different". Quite why it should be more screw ed up than any other advanced industrial country because it had less war da mage is not something you have made clear. There were differing degrees of war damage, and they don't correlate with the current states of the health care systems - which is what you'd expect. WW2 ended 69 years ago, and heal thcare systems can be revamped in a decade or two.
It wasn't. Canada got a lot of Scots immigrants as a direct response to the highland clearances - but that happened in the 19th century, not the 20th
- while Australia is 35% Catholic because the 1850 potato famine persuaded a lot of the Irish to emmigrate there, again in the 19th century.
formatting link
What is why what has happened?
Nobody else spends that much, including those who have more money to spend than the median American.
formatting link
Paying half again more per head doesn't buy them better health care, or sig nificantly better outcomes. They don't do it because they can afford it, bu t because they are being ripped off.
Every health care recipient is different. Consumption couldn't be more priv ate - health care isn't any kind of negotiable good.
It's a public good because infectious diseases can become plagues, infectin g nearly everybody. Treating non-infectious diseases is the price the publi c pays to get patients into the health system when they first get sick, so they can be diagnosed - and if necessary isolated - if what they've got is infectious.
But not exactly impoverished. We did have sweet rationing, which is why I n ever got a taste for sweets, but everything else was fine.
True, which I why I put more faith in
formatting link
ost_Always_Do_Better
The radical incoherence is all yours. The Gini index is pointer to well-und erstood and well-documented differences. "The Spirit Level" presents a much better and deeper discussion of the problems involved, including the relat ion between inequality and health.
You should be able to vote for "none of the above" on every ballot in every election across this great land. If "none of the above" wins the current office holder stays in office until you have another election, say, within 120 days. You keep doing this until "none of the above" does not win. At millions and billions of $$ per election it wont take long for the parties to figure it out.
At least you dont have to vote for the lesser of 2 evils, because when you do evil still wins.
Wouldn't it be more amusing if the office stayed vacant until there was an actual winner? A crippled government is the best government.
The best "government" Arizona ever had was with Governor Mecham... the legislature couldn't pass _anything_, Mecham couldn't do anything, and his daily mouthings were hilarious ;-) ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
I remember the "pickaninny" days. The Republic headlines and all. Other than disfunction down around Washington and Jefferson streets and the few canceled conventions, things seemed pretty normal. Funny how govt can grid lock or shutdown but for most folks life just goes on as normal.
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
That's already a reality in some states. ...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at
formatting link
| 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
The problem with that cartoon is that American never voted for Obamacare. T he Democrats got elected on the economy and the wars in the middle east. On ce the left got control they decided they had a mandate for socialized medi cine and ignored every other issue. Before Obamacare was even passed, they were repudiated with the loss of their super-majority in the Senate. Losing Ted Kennedy's seat no less. They had to use all kinds of tricks to get the ACA passed at the last minute while they still had their super-majority. W ith Obama's first midterms, the Democrats lost the House of Representatives .
ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.