C0G ceramics vs humidity

Apr 09, 2015 73 Replies

If it's like most capacitance meters, the ranges are in decade multiples. Assuming a 1pF first range, the approximate capacitances would be 1, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000, and 100,000 pF. Looks like 0.1uF (100,000 pF) is the largest value available, which should do the job.

In the distant past, I designed marine radios, where humidity, condensation, and immersion are considered normal operating conditions. Tests for humidity specify non-condensing which is somewhat unrealistic for many areas of the planet. Quite often, high humidity will produce condensation on the components and PCB as the temperature crosses the dew point. We had considerable difficulty dealing with water on the PCB. Any ionic contaminants in the PCB would cause leakage when wet. Water buildup on small value capacitors would change the value by making the water part of the capacitor plates. The eventual fix was overkill cleaning, bake dry, and various flavors of conformal coating to keep the water out. I suspect you'll find in testing that the C0G/NP0 caps are quite unaffected by humidity, but everything else around them needs protection.

Your higher capacitance C0G/NP0 caps are classified as MLCC (multi-layer ceramic capacitors). These have the unique ability to act as a microphone: The result is that if the PCB or soldering stresses the capacitors, they will change in value. Flexing the PCB will produce capacitance changes or capacitor damage. Vibration will also produce capacitance variations, which could result in an unstable reading.

MLCC caps will also crack if thermally shocked, usually with soldering iron rework instead of hot air or IR rework tools. A big crack is usually obvious, but I've also seen microcracking where the capacitor didn't short, but did change in value. If you look at the AVX data sheet above, you'll notice a "Capacitance Variation" line under each type of mechanical and thermal stress section. Some of those variations are the results of microcracking. More:

You probably won't have any problems with the lower value capacitors, but the higher and denser MLCC caps might require careful handling and soldering.

Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

They aren't very careful to emphasize the advantages of C0G, but 3rd sentence, 1st par, page 5 says C0G are fine. The summary table also says so (grade "A").

Ironically, the table also claims poor volumetric efficiency, which is in fact opposite: C0G operated at rated voltage has about triple the energy density (aka CV^2 product) of anything else. Presumably, they mean capacitance per volume, without regards to voltage rating, or something like that. Of course, this is probably only relevant at high voltages, where relatively large capacity C0Gs are available.

The paper also seems to be touting the lead frame types, which will be more suitable for hand soldering.

As I recall, lead frame types aren't all that available, or anywhere near as cheap as they sem to claim (same "grade" cost as X7R, yeah right). So YMMV.

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs Electrical Engineering Consultation Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

I have an email out to TDK but no reply yet. I'll try others.

Bob

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 11:40:27 PM UTC-7, Badbob wrote: [about] the affect of humidity on C0G capacitors?

My Boonton 75BDs have a 2-pF FS range. If you null the reading out, it'll just sit there reading 0.000 pF all afternoon. Wave a hand nearby and watch the reading go up by a few femtofarads, then back to zero. They're so cheap on eBay that I have to keep reminding myself that I already have four of them. (Well, two are analogue.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net

72BD.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net

I'm using a classic op-amp capacitive feedback topology. Simple and capable of high accuracy but needs stable caps for best results.

I'm aiming lower than that. Something that can select/match caps for precision filters, phono preamps, that kind of thing, in the audio range. I have a nice handheld but the accuracy barely 1%.

On a sunny day (Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:07:20 -0500) it happened Badbob wrote in :

Ooops, audio.... Its past easter and rabbit ears.

Does it show dissipation factor or Q?

I like the 72B analog ones, and I have three. I had four until an idiot intern applied a couple of kilovolts to the bias input on one.

They are great. That 1 pF range is usable at the and of a few feet of coax between the meter and the DUT. And the AC excitation voltage is millivolts, so you can measure semiconductor junctions too.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Nope, just capacitance. Measuring the Q of a 2-pF capacitor would be a bit of a job, I expect.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net

Why do parts need to be accurate for audio? What would matter in a phono preamp?

Audio seldom makes sense.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Just a charging resistor and an ADC, or a couple of comparators, would work. But caps have dielectric absorption, so ramp-type c-meters are mediocre. If you want to assign a single accurate number to a capacitance, you really have to specify the frequency.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

C'mon, John, anybody buying phono preamps today obviously has ears that can detect 0.001 dB departure from the holy RIAA equalization curve. ;)

But I can get behind anybody who's building his own test equipment. We need more folks like that.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net

There's the arm and needle and coils to consider. Not to mention that the recording studio probably used paper-and-foil capacitors in all its gear, and mixed and equalized it to hell until they liked the sound on whatever monitors they used. And it's going to be played back through speakers with paper cones, in a room with walls and chairs and stuff.

True.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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