breadboarding fast, tiny stuff

We got some samples of an NEC hj fet and were wondering what its time-domain response might be like. The part is only 2x2 mm and the leads are 1.2 mm pitch, and I hadn't previously had a lot of luck breadboarding stuff like this.

We found two tricks:

Get a piece of copperclad, epoxy-glass or preferably teflon; the teflon is easier to cut. Cut out "pads" with a very sharp xacto knife, under a Mantis magnifier. This will make horrible burrs and shorts, so the first trick is to scrub it really hard with a Scotchbrite pad between cuts. This cleans it up beautifully.

The second trick is to use small patches of kapton tape as insulators. like where parts join or whatever. Soldering doesn't bother it at all.

ftp://66.117.156.8/FetTest.zip

Here, the fet is in a first-pass test circuit, just to see how fast we can turn it on and off. The TDR pulse from the sampling head is the gate drive, 0 (Idss) to -0.5 (pretty much off) at 50 ohms source z.

The drain is pulled up through a 47 ohm resistor, and the 150 ohm resistor off to the side is an "attenuator" into the other scope channel. The turnon fall is very clean, no nasty ringing or whatever, with a 190 ps fall time. Turnoff is similar; these things don't store charge! The TDR of the gate (lower trace) indicates that the gate capacitance is loading the drive, so we need a bigger gate swing, from a lower source impedance, to make this thing switch really fast. That will be next.

John

Reply to
John Larkin
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You need to clean that solder iron sponge ;-)

I am going to have to prototype with DFN packages soon. 0.5mm pitch and no leads. Not looking forward to that one. Maybe I'll attach litz wire strands to it.

Nice ramps. Which part number of their FETs is that?

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

That's the NE3508, a slightly bigger version of the 3509. The 3509 is amazing; pinchoff is about -0.4 volts, RDSon is 6 ohms, drain C is

0.35 pF. I've got to do the corresponding measurements on the 3508.

This fet would make a nice footstool for an ant.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Thanks! The NE3509 seems even more hot than the BF862. Nice. The NE3508 datasheet states a similar pinch-off and Rdson looks like 4-ohmish.

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Better than what I just found in a review of a unit from the field: A weird kind of spider in there.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

Measures 3.6, down to under 2 ohms if you enhance it a few tenths of a volt.

I could do a whole product line around this part. I think I will.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Hell, you have a webpage to work with post gif's not zip's.

Reply to
JosephKK

I'm offering free data and advice, and you're whining about the price.

And it's not a web page, it's an FTP site.

And my camera makes jpeg's, not gif's.

Did I leave anything out?

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Yes, one item: It works :-)

(Both the web site and the circuit)

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

I'm right now doing the next version, a new board, with (I hope) improved copper-hacking technique [1]. It will include an MC10EL gate driver, SO-8, to really wail the thing. I'd post more pics, if I didn't think I was boring people.

John

[1] Score two parallel lines in the copper with an x-acto, and cut the ends, to make, say, a long, skinny rectangle, like a 50 ohm CPW gap for example. Tin the strip, or dab it with liquid flux. Now place a soldering iron near one end, and lift the trace; this is the tricky part, getting started. Once the end is free, pull it up gently with tweezers and run the iron along the trace, peeling up behind the tip. The heat softens the epoxy and the copper comes off like a zipper. Very clean cutouts of, say, 30 mil width or bigger can be done.

Do they make really tiny Dremel router bits? That could be interesting.

Reply to
John Larkin

(annoying website - hit the mute button unless you like random noises)

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Is 0.002 inches small enough for you? ;-)

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Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Reply to
Ecnerwal

I did that a long time ago. Using very thin wire is the key to succes. The surface tension of the solder will pull the wire automatically to te center of the pad. It is in fact much easier than -for instance- soldering ribbon cable wires to a header connector.

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Programmeren in Almere?
E-mail naar nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Reply to
Nico Coesel

Why not buy (or fab) a little PC board adapter thing, like the Bellin stuff?

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Nice. Something like this...

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could be chucked into a Dremel and slid along a steel straightedge as a cutting guide.

I'll get some and try.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

I have a diamond-coated bit that's probably no bigger than 1/16" that works well for slicing through copper. Old dental burrs are also frequently available (cheaply -- they're new, but I guess they can only sit on a shelf so long before they're no longer certified to be used on people?) and pretty tiny.

Do you have one of those diamond "donut cutter" bits? (Makes an isolated pad of copper about 1/8" in diameter.)

Reply to
Joel Koltner

The ideal cutter would be 10-20 mills in diameter, square edged like an end mill, but with a smooth fat shank to chuck into the dremel and slide along a guide of some sort, maybe just a steel ruler. The Microcut stuff looks good.

FR-4 sure eats x-acto blades. Three today!

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Please do. This stuff is never boring. Engineers who'd get bored by it should either send back their degrees or go into sales.

Try a shop that caters to glass cutters and people who build those fancy lead-glass lamps.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

I don't think they come in DFN package sizes. It's just for a one-off prototype, see if the concept works. Support by semi mfgs has become so dismal that you have to test everything they didn't write in their datasheets :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

The RF parts are especially bad. We are getting some Nitronex GaN fet samples, but the datasheet has no transfer curves, no DC data, no drain curves, so we'll have to measure it all. Apparently you're supposed to pump RF into the gate and tweak the gate bias until something works. 18 gazillion Smith and load-pull charts, though.

Ditto lots of "DC-XX GHz" mmics and RF switches that apparently DC bias themselves to some undocumented voltages, and work for some unspecified range of "DC."

But these little NEC fets work, as the man says, "like a trained pig."

John

Reply to
John Larkin

so

That's because we are spoiled members of a throw-away society. Grandpa had a sharpening stone right next to him and kept that wet all the time. He wouldn't throw any knife or blade away until it was worn down to less that half its regular size. I still have (and use!) his pocket knife that had made it through two world wars.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

so

pad

One of those purple ceramic Intel 486 CPU's makes a damned fine x-acto sharpening stone.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

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