An $11 trillion global hydrogen energy boom is coming.

e capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

ed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

upport innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), in frastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis act ivities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing e fforts funded by DOE's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydr ogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

Venture capitalists love the idea. Anybody with any sense notices that conv erting electrical energy into hydrogen and converting it back to electrical energy loses about 75% of the energy you started off with. Batteries only lose about 15%.

In Australia the fans of the idea dream of shipping tanker loads of liquid hydrogen to South Korea and Japan. More realistic people are dreaming of la ying an under sea cable from Northern Australia to Singapore. There's plen ty of sunlight and open country in Northern Australia, so we could generate a lot of solar power there.

energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling

That's what happens when you let politicians, especially elite airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

e.

an

ge capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion batter y storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

ded to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enoug h along for them to start getting ready.

support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), i nfrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis ac tivities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduc e cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hyd rogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

able

US energy policy is controlled by people who make money out if. They tend t o more interested in maximising the money they make than they are in supply ing as much energy as is required as cheaply and reliably as possible. US p oliticians tend to respond to the public demand created by the people who a re making money out of the existing system and are prepared to spend some o f that money on misleading advertising.

John Larkin does seem to be susceptible to that sort of advertising, which makes him an airhead too.

What California clearly needs is more short term storage where they can put some of the excess renewable energy. It won't store it from spring to Augu st, but if the renewable energy suppliers can sell more of what they can g enerate in spring they are more likely to install enough extra capacity to satisfy the August demand.

Fred's link laid rather more emphasis on compressed air storage than his co mments would lead you to expect. Hydrogen gas as power storage medium isn't great, but it does seem to be good enough to support pump and dump schemes to get money out of the gullible.

Again? How old are you, that you still believe this nonsense?

Jeroen Belleman

le.

ean

age capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion batte ry storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

eded to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enou gh along for them to start getting ready.

support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis a ctivities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to redu ce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hy drogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

nverting electrical energy into hydrogen and converting it back to electric al energy loses about 75% of the energy you started off with. Batteries onl y lose about 15%.

Not sure efficiency is all that much of a consideration when the energy sou rce is free. I think the idea is that the big solar installation already po wering the grid will be a bit oversized to send power to the electrolysis p rocess on the side.

d hydrogen to South Korea and Japan. More realistic people are dreaming of laying an under sea cable from Northern Australia to Singapore. There's ple nty of sunlight and open country in Northern Australia, so we could generat e a lot of solar power there.

The cable idea makes more sense just from the standpoint of shipping less m ass around.

They've already completed most of the caverns at that Utah site.

e.

an

ge capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion batter y storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

ded to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enoug h along for them to start getting ready.

support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), i nfrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis ac tivities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduc e cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hyd rogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

able

What are you going to do if you can't store the excess? That's what this pr ogram is all about.

Simple: When we have too much, California pays Arizona to take our excess solar and wind power.

When we don't have enough, we buy power from other states, who make it from gas and coal.

That's called "moral high ground", at 30 cents per KWH.

dule.

Clean

orage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion bat tery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far en ough along for them to start getting ready.

to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D) , infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existi ng efforts funded by DOE's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to re duce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

newable

program is all about.

This MacArthur genius has ideas on the subject: Not sure the award is a rec ommendation of any kind.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.

Use Thorium Molten Salt Reactors. They automatically adjust power output to match the load. No storage is required. The first examples ran around

See Wikipedia article:

Lots more on Youtube. See videos by Kirk Sorensen and others.

The current problem is licensing. For example, they run at atmospheric pressure, so no containment vessel is needed. This violates the requirements of the nuclear licensing authorities who will not issue a license.

Canada is a bit more liberal, and a lot of the work goes on here.

China has no such problems and is proceeding at full steam. (no pun intended.)

I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in the winter, people just opened the windows.

edule.

Clean

torage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion ba ttery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far e nough along for them to start getting ready.

to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D ), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysi s activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon exist ing efforts funded by DOE's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to r educe cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

enewable

s program is all about.

class-A ;)

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheape st powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district I think Apples big data center also does.

when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity an d heat generation it has an efficiency of over 90%

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?

On our construction site in Moscow, people were always stealing stuff. They said "It's OK. It doesn't belong to anybody."

dule.

Clean

orage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion bat tery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far en ough along for them to start getting ready.

to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D) , infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existi ng efforts funded by DOE's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to re duce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

converting electrical energy into hydrogen and converting it back to electr ical energy loses about 75% of the energy you started off with. Batteries o nly lose about 15%.

ource is free. I think the idea is that the big solar installation already powering the grid will be a bit oversized to send power to the electrolysis process on the side.

The energy source is free, but the solar cells that collect it aren't, and they have to have the dust washed off from time to time.

The cost of power from solar cells is largely the interest on the capital y ou invested to buy them in the first place, in the same way that the cost o f hydroelectric power is essentially the interest on the money you had to s pend to build the dam and the power station and the turbines and generating plant you put inside it.

uid hydrogen to South Korea and Japan. More realistic people are dreaming o f laying an under sea cable from Northern Australia to Singapore. There's p lenty of sunlight and open country in Northern Australia, so we could gener ate a lot of solar power there.

mass around.

Sub-sea cable isn't cheap, and doesn't last forever. Conceptually, a bunch of liquid hydrogen tankers sailing there and back along the same route are much the same sort of thing.

Electrical transit time along the cable is a lot quicker, so you haven't go t working capital tied up in the liquid hydrogen in transit.

He tells us that we only have 10 years to decarbonize, or the planet is hopelessly ruined. Why is it always 10 years?

Or maybe 12.

- Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

Based on previous predictions, it's way too late to Save The Planet. So let's enjoy the wreckage.

It's the right order of magnitude; ten months is too short, a century is too long, so...

We needn't quibble about minor stuff unless we can do something usefully more accurate.

Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.

To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and week.

One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

This also means that the water returning to the power plant is quite warm (about 50 C), which is too high to cool the steam exiting the low pressure turbine and condensing it to water and create a near vacuum.

For best Carnot efficiency, the hot side must be as hot as possible and the cold side as cool as possible (measured in Kelvins). For this reason, sometimes part of the district heat return water is routed through pipes under the sidewalk to keep them snow and ice free :-). Thus very cold water is available in the turbine condenser to reduce the back pressure after the turbine. To make sense, the price obtained from electricity must be much higher than that obtained from heat.

er.com:

schedule.

nced Clean

er storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-io n battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

ment needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are f ar enough along for them to start getting ready.

ding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost ana lysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon e xisting efforts funded by DOE's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

ss renewable

lling

this program is all about.

ss

eapest

dds heat to their local district

y and heat generation

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when t here is cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

I think the temperature most receive is around 70'C and it varies through t he year

you are required to cool the water ~30'C and you pay a penalty if you go below that on a year average

I think here the price per kWh is about 4x for electricity