Old pcb > new art?

I have a friend who services old equipment from a manufacturer who is out of business. He is generally able to effect repairs and get the customers up and running again, but on occasion he finds a circuit board so badly damaged or mistreated that he'd rather start with a nice fresh new one. Of course the circuit board artwork is long gone. The boards are 70's era, single-sided designs with big through-hole components and fat traces (30mil max, is my guess). Simple stuff, really.

He asks me, how can he get new boards made? And I had to tell him that I reckon a fellow could find a clean one, and scan it, use it as the basis for a new design. But that's as far as my guesses take me. He needs a small-budget, cheap and cheerful low-tech solution. Ideas?

He's located in Oklahoma, if anyone nearby can do this kind of work.

Reply to
Mike Elliott
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PCB has an option for using a scanned image as the background of the working area, so you could design a circuit board using it as a reference.

Reply to
DJ Delorie

Cool feature! That's PCB as in

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?

Sorry, I didn't specify the OS: Win 2000 or XP.

-- mike elliott

Reply to
Mike Elliott

Mike Elliott wrote:

Yup.

We keep telling the gEDA boys that a Knoppix-like CD of gEDA would be way cool.

Every consider a dual boot to Linux?

**Install "PCB" under Windows** http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:VBsSPv1ihqYJ:archives.seul.org/geda/user/Feb-2005/msg00252.html+on.*.*.Window.*+experience.with.PCB.on.Windows+I-managed-to-install-PCB+zzz+installed.Cygwin+successfully.and.simply+and.did+startx+Feb-2005
Reply to
JeffM

JeffM wrote: : DJ Delorie wrote: :>>PCB has an option for using a scanned image :>>as the background of the working area, :>>so you could design a circuit board using it as a reference. :>

: Mike Elliott wrote: :>Cool feature! That's PCB as in

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? :>

: Yup.

:> Sorry, I didn't specify the OS: Win 2000 or XP. :>

: We keep telling the gEDA boys : that a Knoppix-like CD of gEDA would be way cool.

*Chuckle* We gEDA boys keep telling folks like you to join the fun and contribute to the project by creating such a CD! ;-)

FWIW, there already is a Knoppix-like CD with gEDA on it: Quantian, which is a distro concentrating on providing open-source scientific and engineering apps. Here's more info:

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Also, Cambridge Univ (UK) has created a live CD for use in its engineering curriculum; their CD includes gEDA on it. The idea is that they can then use gEDA as the preferred EDA environment in their teaching and laboratories. Indeed, we gEDA boys are currently collaborating with the group at Cambridge on improving gEDA in ways making it more convenient for student use. Read about it here:

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I'm not sure if the folks at Cambridge will release the CD publically; that remains to be seen.

: Every consider a dual boot to Linux?

If you can purchase a new computer for a couple of hundered dollars, what's the barrier to just putting a brand spanking new Linux box on your desk next to your Windoze box & then loading the Linux box up with gEDA, PCB, Icarus Verilog, GTKWave, Gnucap, NGSpice, Octave, Scilab, and the zillions of other open-source packages out there? I mean, at some point the "Win 2000 or XP" requirement begins to sound like an excuse for simply being behind the curve. . . . . .

Stuart

Reply to
Stuart Brorson

Yes.

There's a build script in the source tree for building under Cygwin or MinGW; I suggest trying the CVS head first as there have been some recent improvements in that. You'll need the Gtk libraries installed.

Reply to
DJ Delorie

We agree, but we're short on people willing to work on it. Stuart spends most of his effort on the install CD.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:VBsSPv1ihqYJ:archives.seul.org/geda/user/Feb-2005/msg00252.html+on.*.*.Window.*+experience.with.PCB.on.Windows+I-managed-to-install-PCB+zzz+installed.Cygwin+successfully.and.simply+and.did+startx+Feb-2005

We've made progress since then :-)

Reply to
DJ Delorie

Well . . . that's not going to happen. Though he's handy at keeping a specialized kind of old machine alive, in his day job he is an accountant. You wanna hold an accountant's hand on this?

I'm hoping to find a primitive solution for him, which can be done under Windows -- or by hand. Like, scan it and enlarge it 2:1, toss on some frosted Mylar and stick crepe tape and pads on it. Like in 1970. But that stuff is probably not available now, and it's not clear if his wife would like him to take over the kitchen table for that.

Or scan it and use it as a background in a vector graphics program, like Adobe Illustrator, then simply (and crudely) draw tracks. Even a CPA could do that. Either way, he'd need to do a old-school non-NC drill and fab drawing. I'd probably volunteer to help him make one by hand.

Or a turnkey service that could work off a physical board.

--
mike elliott
Reply to
Mike Elliott

So... build pcb for windows, use the scanned board as a background.

More likely, scan the board, touch it up in photoshop or gimp, and print it. Depends on how you're going to fab the board - if you're going to do it at home (toner transfer, photo etch), printing is fine. If you want a fab to make it, you'll need gerbers, and something like PCB to generate them.

If you can use illustrator, you can use PCB. It has a "line" tool and a number of common footprints (TO-92 and DIP, for example), or a "via" tool for pads for the odd ones.

Reply to
DJ Delorie

Ah. A well-kept secret...and the changelog page linked below shows that somebody in this group really fell down on the job not getting the word out for over 2 years.

Many of the included apps aren't mentioned on Dirk's main page

--specifically not gEDA. I had to dig a bit to verify that: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:h1CdvTYEM6sJ:dirk.eddelbuettel.com/quantian/changelog.html+2004-07-31+electronics.design.software.suite+geda That being said, VERY COOL.

(Cool * 2).

8-( Make that (Cool * 1.5).

I'm curious about the thought process >>Every consider a dual boot to Linux?

If you have the space for it: Sure.

Resistance is futile.

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8-)
Reply to
JeffM

Yeah, but why do we need gerbers? I have not been inside a pc shop since I worked in one in the early 80's. Sensitized boards were exposed to a

1:1 image taken from a photographic film. I have it in my head that gerbers are used to generate that image.

My friend who needs these boards has located a 1:1 pdf of the art. Seems possible that the art could be turned directly into the needed image directly if he can find a shop that still knows how to expose off of film.

He'd need to make a hand marked drill drawing, and the board house would need to make their drill file the old way: targeting the film by hand. But with the help of a friendly board house willing to work with him, I think he might have all that he needs to have some admittedly crude but very workable boards.

Unless, of course, board houses no longer have the equipment and the know-how to go from art to tooling. Then he's either going to learn PCB or something, or he'll be making the boards at home.

He should probably look at how boards are made at home, to see if it's something he wants to get into. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good instructional "how to" web site?

-- mike elliott

Reply to
Mike Rocket J Squirrel

JeffM wrote: : Stuart Brorson wrote: :>Also, Cambridge Univ (UK) has created a live CD for use :>in its engineering curriculum; their CD includes gEDA on it. :>

:>Read about it here: :>

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:>

: (Cool * 2).

:>I'm not sure if the folks at Cambridge will release the CD publically; :>

: 8-( Make that (Cool * 1.5).

:>that remains to be seen. :>

: I'm curious about the thought process on that.

They bundle ProE on the same CD. ProE is -- of course -- proprietary, so there are some considerations related to distributing the CD. For use within Cambridge Univ you need to run it using a licence server accessible only to students. For external users with no access to the licence server, ProE is inactive. Nonetheless, I'd suspect that PTC (the makers of ProE) don't want their stuff too easily downloadable since there are plenty of hackers out there who know how to spoof a licence server. . . .

At least that's my understanding of the situation, and my knowledge may be incomplete, so consider it worth what you paid for it! ;-)

Stuart

Reply to
Stuart Brorson

Take your pick:

25-Page PDF
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Credentials:
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*-universities-*-*-*-*-*-are-*-including-it-as-*-reference-material-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*+zzz-zz+disagree-with-*-*-*-star-grounds+*-major-*-PCB-*-package-*-*-included-it-in-their-Help-system

Mike Harrison

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Bob Masta

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Richard Choy

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Forrest Cook

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David Cook (uses ExpressPCB software)

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Sotris Pdmtr http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:kgpxIleULboJ:

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(Cache of his geocities page which has adframe inside adframe)

Tom Goote (The cheapest way)

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Reply to
JeffM

JeffM wrote:

That's the work of David L. Jones.

^^^ ^^^^^ Tom Gootee

Reply to
JeffM

Thanks, Jeff!

Reply to
Mike Elliott

You don't need them if you are making the board yourself.

If you want to use a board shop, they expect gerbers.

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Reply to
Hal Murray

good digital camera on the foil side, and a good paint program to clean it up and recolor the surface. then make sure the size is 1:1, reverse it and send the Black & White to a laser printer using ink just photo paper (smooth style), iron on clean copper board then was under water.. the toner will go on the board. then etch it. etc..

--
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
Reply to
Jamie

In Ye Olde Days, I delivered 1:1 films and a drill drawing to the board house. In the case of a single-sided board, the film was used to create a "silk" screen, which was used to put resist on boards that were bought pre-clad with copper. Where there was no resist, the copper was etched off in a tank of some noxious-looking fluid.

Double-sided boards used a different process, whereby the film was used to "sensitize" non-clad boards, which were then plated with copper.

Either way, a photographic film was the starting point. I recall an operator using a rig called a "bomb sight" to find the XY coordinates of all the pad holes on the film and create a (paper tape) drill files used by the Excellon drill machines.

As time progressed and we entered this hurley-burley modern age of ours, Gerber photoplotters were used to create the films from digital files, and delivering a film to the board house was no longer needed.

But if shops can't work with anything but a Gerber file, then that suggests that they skip the film-to-screen process, which suggests that they would have no use whatsoever for films, which means that walking into a shop with a mailing tube of films under my arm would be a waste of time because they wouldn't know what to do with it. How do they get the image onto the board material?

-- mike elliott

Reply to
Mike Elliott

Photographic reproduction techniques are still alive and well. I don't know of any process to plot directly on production material (except homebrew pen plotting). It wouldn't be economical for much more than one offs.

The board house may want gerbers to make adjustments for their processes and as reference for optical inspection or netlist extraction for electrical testing. They may also want to add tooling features and use the gerbers as a reference for routing. Having gone through the process once they would use the same photoplots and data for subsequent batches.

I'm sure they would like drill data rather than having to create and if they do have to create it I'm sure they would prefer a gerber file for reference to create it electronically on a computer rather than optically on a drilling machine.

Strangely board houses do seem to end up creating route profiles, it seems to be an area not well supported by PCB CAD packages.

Reply to
nospam

I asked one about that, preparing to add route exports to PCB. They didn't want it. It's too easy to damage their machines with invalid profiles, they'd rather do it themselves from a CAD outline.

Reply to
DJ Delorie

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