Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Sounds good. Sort of what I was looking for, but I was never there, and might not know if if I saw it. I guess like good records of anything, it helps to have saved stuff from the time and place of occurence. If Google is anything to go by, BiMOS wasn't used all that much. Weird, given how good it can be.
Google doesn't know $#^*
BiCMOS is wonderful for high-end analog/mixed-signal systems. I've designed numerous chips on XFAB and Polarfab BiCMOS processes. BiCMOS is quite a bit more expensive, but well worth it given the performance gains. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Well, that's kind of my point. >:) I'm citing their best output to encourage you to come up with the good stuff. :)
I think analog accuracy has been underrated over many years. Never mind that it doesn't get to the last bit-worth of accuracy, the SPEED of calculating complex forms is second till none, at least until someone does it with quantum computing. So much time might have been saved by analog cumputers, leaving digital ones to refine the output.
I disagree (slightly)... It's hard to beat a uP for decision making and using its outputs to control analog functions.
It's a rare chip I've designed in recent years that doesn't either have an embedded uP in it (designed by or purchased IP embedded by a subcontractor buddy of mine), or is controlled by an external uP. We are, after all, living in a system on a chip (SOC) world. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
[snip]
Ran your schematic... behavior is extraordinarily weird, output hangs about 0.7V below ground when powered from +/-12V
Please recheck your netlist. Thanks! ...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at
Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
I checked it, it's definitely wired ok, transistors are of correct type and orientation, and the pins are correctly numbered according to node. I can't model its parts so didn't check by running it.
I can think of a few things that might matter. I didn't assign a ground, so there was no node 0, it was node 15, and maybe there has to be a node 0 in all subcircuits. Also, I used European resistor value methods like 500R, which LTspice can be told not to accept. Also, as LTspice uses M for MOSFET and Q for bipolar, and I kept the numbering from the datasheet, the first M value is 8, not 1, and there is no Q8. Maybe spice programs don't like discontinuities like that.
Apart from that last point, which I left as I did it, so the numbers match up, I changed the other details I mentioned for more likely compatibility, and also reordered parts by stage as they appear in the datasheet schematic, which should help with verifying their nodes are right.
*Intersil CA3140, basic model drafted from datasheet.
I guess you did reorder the pin count and quantity. :) (And possibly reversed
+in and -In in doing so by accident?) I used all 8, but I imagine my new SUBCKT can be made standard for 5 pins +In -In V+ V- Out by doing this: .SUBCKT CA3140 22 20 1 0 15 (Leaving the other 3 as no external connection).
No. You don't need a Node Zero inside a subcircuit.
Fixed right away.
Not a problem in PSpice. I did have to fix your headers, "15" =>
"N015", etc, otherwise everything "floats" :-)
[snip]It could be simply an issue with guessing the MOSFET parameters, for example M(Q)8... probably a long channel device to act like a variable resistor... how long, who knows? Plus that output current "sink" structure is plain-ass somebody's wet dream ;-)
But the data sheet offers some clues, the strobe current is 220uA, so that's the current in Q3/Q4.
Given the weirdness of that output stage I'm becoming inclined to model it as a mix of behavioral blocks plus NPN's to match the data sheet.
The data sheet indicates to me that it's not the world's gift to OpAmp performance standards... why do you want to use it?
I invented that Q11, Q12, Q13 "turnaround"... see Tom Frederiksen's book, "Intuitive IC Op Amps", page 14. The schematic in the data sheet is NOT balanced... I suspect a typo... maybe there are more. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
PSpice _is_ a mixed-signal simulator. I can throw in digital primitives right along with analog stuff. I often simply use 74HC behaviorals to speed up my design cycle, then convert to device-level. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Nope, no reorder... I symbolized it as an 8-pin block, pin order per the data sheet... as you did. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Ok
Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Ok. I thought not too, but reordered anyway, because I noticed that pin orders must be contigous starting from 1 in a symbol, and I decided to avoid similar trouble.
Ok. In mine I just used literal values of ohms, and 12E-12 for that cap.
Yeah, I just noticed that! I chucked any model that looked like it would fit from the standard libraries just to see if I can run this. it took a while, chewing, but it DID run, and my output from that equal-divider test shows correct 2.5V from 5V input.
With 'startup' in .tran it does funny things extremely fast at low amplitude, but that might just be because I threw models recklessly inside it. It still settled down eventually to a correct DC output.
For the record, this is what I threw inside:
*MODELS NEEDED FOR CA3140 INNARDS .model Diode D(Is=2.52n Rs=.568 N=1.752 Cjo=4p M=.4 tt=20n Iave=200m Vpk=75 mfg=OnSemi type=silicon) .model Zener D(Is=1.13E-14 N=1.103 Vpk=15 bv=15 Ibv=0.005 Rs=0.4798 Cjo=4.023E-11 Vj=0.6144 M=0.3297 FC=0.5 mfg=Philips type=Zener) .model NPN NPN(Is=7.049f Xti=3 Eg=1.11 Vaf=23.89 Bf=493.2 Ise=99.2f Ne=1.829 Ikf=.1542 Nk=.6339 Xtb=1.5 Br=2.886 Isc=7.371p Nc=1.508 Ikr=5.426 Rc=1.175 Cjc=5.5p Mjc=.3132 Vjc=.4924 Fc=.5 Cje=11.5p Mje=.6558 Vje=.5 Tr=10n Tf=420.3p Itf=1.374 Xtf=39.42 Vtf=10 mfg=PHILIPS) .model PNP PNP(Is=1.02f Xti=3 Eg=1.11 Vaf=34.62 Bf=401.6 Ise=38.26p Ne=5.635 Ikf=74.73m Nk=.512 Xtb=1.5 Br=9.011 Isc=1.517f Nc=1.831 Ikr=.1469 Rc=1.151 Cjc=9.81p Mjc=.332 Vjc=.4865 Fc=.5 Cje=30p Mje=.3333 Vje=.5 Tr=10n Tf=524p Itf=.9847 Xtf=17.71 Vtf=10 mfg=PHILIPS) .model NMOS VDMOS(Rg=3 Vto=2.2 Rd=22m Rs=5.5m Rb=28m Kp=10 lambda=.01 Cgdmax=.4n Cgdmin=.1n Cgs=.64n Cjo=.2n Is=25p mfg=Fairchild Vds=60 Ron=55m Qg=12.5n) .model PMOS VDMOS(pchan Rg=3 Vto=-2.5 Rd=42m Rs=10.5m Rb=53m Kp=9 lambda=.01 Cgdmax=.5n Cgdmin=.12n Cgs=.8n Cjo=.24n Is=30p mfg=Fairchild Vds=-60 Ron=105m Qg=15n)
It's a mystery to me entirely. :) All I could make of it was a weird feedback potential but there is meant to be feedback anyway. For now I'll have to accept my ignorance on this one. Likewise most of what follows...
I found it performs very well in a laser diode analpog modulator I designed. Better than other hobbyists are sellign boards to punters are acheiving. I had to use LT1215 to sigificantly beat it. (And if you can recommend other amps likely to share the essential qualities of those two (single rail, fast slew rate), please do).
Also, it's been in general use for so long, and is always fairly easy to find. Sometimes it might be better than using something newer (those hobbyists were using new video amps and getting less performance, though my circuit might suceed where theirs fail by using the amp(s) at unity gain or less and doing the gain with a voltage regulator (of all things, but it DOES work...).
In short, I learned to like it a lot. I found it worked so often in various things that I'd like to model it as first base in many new ideas.
Nasty possibility... If so, it persisted from the Harris original.
Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Hmm, logically I ought to apply that idea to my switches. :) If I needed enough of them I might, for speed. As it is I used the voltage source and the voltage controlled switch, and used my own arrangement of arguments to input to the voltage used as a pulse, then subcircuited all, with appropriate symbols. It works but leaves me thinking there ought to be a better way.
[snip]
The data sheet is amongst the worst I've ever seen.
Can you collect the following data:
(1) Unloaded supply current versus total supply voltage
(2) Maximum SINK current capability versus total supply voltage ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
I got three samples of Intersil CA3140, of various ages, likely from different sources, each set up as a voltage follower: wire links from Out back to -In, +in to V- rail. The output was unloaded. 33 readings for each IC. This data set may well be overkill, but I want quality so I have to give it. :) It takes some endurance and patience with my setup to get stable readings this accurate, so I'll sleep before I try for the sink currents.
Is there any change I must make to that voltage follower circuit I described just now, for the sink current tests? Also, I assumed I'd have to limit the current in whatever was on the output to prevent damage to the output, so I don't understand what is needed to set up that test. (Might if I was less tired, but please save me from a silly mistake tomorrow, as I have callers to measure up fencing and cracked glass, plenty of distractions....)
TABLES OF 3 CA1410 IC'S, IDLE CURRENT DRAW AT BETWEEN 4VDC AND 26VDC. (Current measured on 40 mA range of Fluke 79, series II). (Voltage measured simultaneously on Fluke 77, series II).
V mA Sample 1:
4.02 1.216 5.01 1.302 6.00 1.383 7.00 1.466 8.01 1.550 9.01 1.632 10.01 1.711 11.01 1.789 12.01 1.866 13.01 1.944 14.00 2.020 15.00 2.095 16.01 2.172 17.01 2.249 18.01 2.324 19.01 2.398 20.00 2.471 21.01 2.546 22.01 2.620 23.00 2.692 24.00 2.765 25.01 2.837 26.01 2.908 27.01 2.979 28.00 3.048 29.00 3.118 30.01 3.190 31.00 3.258 32.01 3.328 33.00 3.401 34.00 3.469 35.00 3.538 36.00 3.601Sample 2:
4.00 1.331 5.00 1.446 6.01 1.535 7.01 1.621 8.00 1.706 9.01 1.789 10.00 1.868 11.01 1.946 12.00 2.022 13.01 2.100 14.00 2.174 15.01 2.249 16.01 2.268 17.01 2.294 18.00 2.370 19.01 2.446 20.01 2.521 21.00 2.595 22.01 2.670 23.01 2.744 24.00 2.817 25.00 2.889 26.01 2.962 27.00 3.031 28.00 3.104 29.01 3.174 30.00 3.242 31.01 3.314 32.01 3.384 33.00 3.456 34.00 3.522 35.00 3.588 36.00 3.655Sample 3:
4.00 1.250 5.01 1.333 6.00 1.391 7.01 1.075 8.01 1.559 9.01 1.644 10.00 1.722 11.01 1.802 12.00 1.879 13.00 1.958 14.01 2.036 15.00 2.113 16.01 2.191 17.01 2.268 18.00 2.341 19.01 2.418 20.01 2.493 21.00 2.567 22.00 2.642 23.00 2.716 24.01 2.790 25.01 2.863 26.01 2.936 27.00 3.007 28.01 3.079 29.01 3.148 30.00 3.218 31.01 3.287 32.01 3.357 33.00 3.431 34.00 3.495 35.00 3.562 36.00 3.632Lostgallifreyan wrote in news:Xns9FE63BF8B1BB6zoodlewurdle@216.196.109.145:
It will be obvious, but that should be 36VDC. :)
Lostgallifreyan wrote in news:Xns9FE63BF8B1BB6zoodlewurdle@216.196.109.145:
Maybe worth mentioning the ambient temperature: 21°C. Same for all three idle current tests.
I looked at the Intersil datasheet and saw a graph for idle current vs voltage that suggested my readings were half what they should be! As the milliamp range on a meter is the most easily damaged, I did a simple test to see what if any scale change should be made to my readings to get accuracy from them.
3.802V across Li-ion cell loaded by 996 ohms. Calculated current: 3.776mA. Actual current: 3.817mA.Not as close as they should be, but much closer than the difference between datasheet graphs and measured values.
[snip]
The implication from the data sheet is that it's limited to some small amount... the data sheet says, at 5V, Isinkmax=1mA :-(
Maybe, as a follower, input biased at midpoint, pull up output with a voltage source (gently :-) and observe current? ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Midpoint between negative and positive supply, or between negative and the same fixed voltage that pulls up the output? (I'll use 5V through a resistor value of your choosing for the output pullup, so we have known conditions).
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