phase shift in inverting opamp

I need an instrument input amp with 1M input impedance and -0.5 gain, and very low phase shift out to 100 KHz.

I'm not sure what sorts of parasitic shunt capacitance I'll see on the resistors, theoretically 1M input and 500K feedback. My board stackup may affect the shunt capacitances some. Maybe if I use 2x500K instead of 1M, things will work out automatically.

Good news: my preferred opamp, AD8034, now has a model built-into LT Spice. So I'll buy more ADI parts because they acquired LTC and LT Spice.

Version 4 SHEET 1 880 680 WIRE -768 -128 -800 -128 WIRE -752 -128 -768 -128 WIRE -592 -128 -624 -128 WIRE -576 -128 -592 -128 WIRE -320 -128 -448 -128 WIRE -144 -128 -256 -128 WIRE -48 -128 -144 -128 WIRE 144 -128 16 -128 WIRE 304 -128 144 -128 WIRE 496 -128 368 -128 WIRE -800 -80 -800 -128 WIRE -624 -80 -624 -128 WIRE -800 48 -800 0 WIRE -624 48 -624 0 WIRE -448 48 -448 -128 WIRE -400 48 -448 48 WIRE -288 48 -400 48 WIRE -144 48 -144 -128 WIRE -144 48 -208 48 WIRE -80 48 -144 48 WIRE 144 48 144 -128 WIRE 144 48 0 48 WIRE 288 48 144 48 WIRE 496 48 496 -128 WIRE 496 48 368 48 WIRE -448 144 -448 48 WIRE 144 192 144 48 WIRE 176 192 144 192 WIRE 496 208 496 48 WIRE 496 208 240 208 WIRE 560 208 496 208 WIRE 592 208 560 208 WIRE 176 224 144 224 WIRE -448 320 -448 224 WIRE 144 352 144 224 FLAG 144 352 0 FLAG -448 320 0 FLAG -624 48 0 FLAG -800 48 0 FLAG -768 -128 +12 FLAG 208 176 +12 FLAG -592 -128 -12 FLAG 208 240 -12 FLAG -400 48 GEN FLAG 560 208 OUT SYMBOL res -96 64 R270 WINDOW 0 -45 60 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 -55 61 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 500K SYMBOL res 272 64 R270 WINDOW 0 -37 60 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 -41 61 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 500K SYMBOL voltage -448 128 R0 WINDOW 123 64 135 Left 2 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2 WINDOW 0 77 60 Left 2 WINDOW 3 35 99 Left 2 SYMATTR Value2 AC 1 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value SINE(0 1 1k) SYMBOL voltage -624 -96 R0 SYMATTR InstName V2 SYMATTR Value -15 SYMBOL voltage -800 -96 R0 SYMATTR InstName V3 SYMATTR Value 15 SYMBOL Opamps\\AD8034 208 144 R0 WINDOW 0 73 117 Left 2 WINDOW 3 43 152 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName U1 SYMBOL res -304 64 R270 WINDOW 0 -45 61 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 -55 59 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 500K SYMBOL cap -256 -144 R90 WINDOW 0 72 30 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 79 30 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value {Cp} SYMBOL cap 16 -144 R90 WINDOW 0 72 30 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 79 30 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value {Cp} SYMBOL cap 368 -144 R90 WINDOW 0 72 30 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 79 30 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C3 SYMATTR Value {Cp} TEXT -808 216 Left 2 !.ac dec 100 100 1Meg TEXT -768 120 Left 2 ;P330 Input Amp TEXT -768 160 Left 2 ;JL May 5, 2018 TEXT -776 288 Left 2 !.param Cp=0.1p

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin
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Minor corrections:

Version 4 SHEET 1 880 680 WIRE -768 -128 -800 -128 WIRE -752 -128 -768 -128 WIRE -592 -128 -624 -128 WIRE -576 -128 -592 -128 WIRE -320 -128 -448 -128 WIRE -144 -128 -256 -128 WIRE -48 -128 -144 -128 WIRE 144 -128 16 -128 WIRE 304 -128 144 -128 WIRE 496 -128 368 -128 WIRE -800 -80 -800 -128 WIRE -624 -80 -624 -128 WIRE -800 48 -800 0 WIRE -624 48 -624 0 WIRE -448 48 -448 -128 WIRE -400 48 -448 48 WIRE -288 48 -400 48 WIRE -144 48 -144 -128 WIRE -144 48 -208 48 WIRE -80 48 -144 48 WIRE 144 48 144 -128 WIRE 144 48 0 48 WIRE 288 48 144 48 WIRE 496 48 496 -128 WIRE 496 48 368 48 WIRE -448 144 -448 48 WIRE 144 192 144 48 WIRE 176 192 144 192 WIRE 496 208 496 48 WIRE 496 208 240 208 WIRE 560 208 496 208 WIRE 592 208 560 208 WIRE 176 224 144 224 WIRE -448 320 -448 224 WIRE 144 352 144 224 FLAG 144 352 0 FLAG -448 320 0 FLAG -624 48 0 FLAG -800 48 0 FLAG -768 -128 +12 FLAG 208 176 +12 FLAG -592 -128 -12 FLAG 208 240 -12 FLAG -400 48 GEN FLAG 560 208 OUT SYMBOL res -96 64 R270 WINDOW 0 -45 60 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 -55 61 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 500K SYMBOL res 272 64 R270 WINDOW 0 -37 60 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 -41 61 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 500K SYMBOL voltage -448 128 R0 WINDOW 123 64 135 Left 2 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2 WINDOW 0 77 60 Left 2 WINDOW 3 35 99 Left 2 SYMATTR Value2 AC 1 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value SINE(0 1 1k) SYMBOL voltage -624 -96 R0 WINDOW 0 60 40 Left 2 WINDOW 3 54 78 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V2 SYMATTR Value -12 SYMBOL voltage -800 -96 R0 WINDOW 0 50 35 Left 2 WINDOW 3 49 79 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V3 SYMATTR Value 12 SYMBOL Opamps\\AD8034 208 144 R0 WINDOW 0 73 117 Left 2 WINDOW 3 43 152 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName U1 SYMBOL res -304 64 R270 WINDOW 0 -45 61 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 -55 59 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 500K SYMBOL cap -256 -144 R90 WINDOW 0 72 30 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 79 30 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value {Cp} SYMBOL cap 16 -144 R90 WINDOW 0 72 30 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 79 30 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value {Cp} SYMBOL cap 368 -144 R90 WINDOW 0 72 30 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 79 30 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C3 SYMATTR Value {Cp} TEXT -808 216 Left 2 !.ac dec 100 100 1Meg TEXT -768 120 Left 2 ;P330 Input Amp TEXT -768 160 Left 2 ;JL May 5, 2018 TEXT -776 288 Left 2 !.param Cp=0.05p

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

[snip]

Pad CP high enough to swamp parasitics. ...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

formatting link
| 1962 |

Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions, by understanding what nature is hiding.

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie

Reply to
Jim Thompson

AD app note AN-107 has a cute circuit for a low phase error amp--it uses a dual, with one section arranged in the feedback of the other to null out the closed-loop phase shift. Doesn't work at low noise gains on account of instability, but could be hacked up a bit.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

http://electrooptical.net 
http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Firefox refuses to connect to the ADI site. It says some certificate is insecure!

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Your connection is not secure

The owner of

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has configured their website improperly. To protect your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this website.

Report errors like this to help Mozilla identify and block malicious sites

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Pad-pad capacitance on the board could add a bit of shunt C. That would depend on pad dims and the ground plane spacing.

I have no clue about numbers. Web searches turn up our own discussions on the subject!

This is good, but doesn't include the PCB:

formatting link

Jeroen's data includes high-ohm resistors, which is rare.

I guess I'll use three 500K resistors and hope for the best.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

[snip]

At 100kHz it should work just fine. ...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

formatting link
| 1962 |

Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions, by understanding what nature is hiding.

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie

Reply to
Jim Thompson

Am 05.05.2018 um 18:44 schrieb John Larkin:

But you can override it. The address is safe.

regards, Gerhard

Reply to
Gerhard Hoffmann

The ADI web site seems to be tangled.

Search Results: Unified Search

Application Notes AN-107: ADM1068/ADM1069/ADM1168/ADM1169 Configuration Registers

but the link is actually to the opamp thing that Phil referenced.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

I'm thinking about making a simulator for a capacitive fuel level sensor. I'd like the overall phase shift to be well below 1 degree from 1 KHz to 100 KHz. It looks like, if I use a 1M input resistor and

500K feedback on an AD8033 for the input stage, both resistors with about 0.05 pF parasitic capacitance, I'll get a little phase lead at 100K. Then I can add some lag in a downstream stage to pull things close to zero. That gives me something that I can tune on the first article.
--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Cap active level sensors can be fun... or a pain. I did one for sensing irrigation run-off about 40 years ago... used my swimming pool as the "lab" to test my breadboard. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions, 
              by understanding what nature is hiding. 

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that 
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie
Reply to
Jim Thompson

We continue where they left off, with measurements, AoE III page 314-315.

--
 Thanks, 
    - Win
Reply to
Winfield Hill

Water has a giant dielectric constant. Organics, like jet fuel and lube oil, have Er around 2, so the probe capacitance only doubles from empty to full tank. A few hundred pF is the sort of range you might see in an aircraft. Industrial things, with deep tanks, can be more.

LNG has Er about 1.7; I've done capacitive gaging on that. I think I could do a capacitive liquid helium level gage, where Er is about

1.05. People do bizarre things to measure helium level.
--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Or you could use one of the very nice TDR "radar gas gauges" that ChesterW and I did a year or two back. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

http://electrooptical.net 
http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

How about this one

formatting link

Pretty simple and cheap. With faster logic, it should handle short ranges.

Reply to
Steve Wilson

[snip]

Aha!! So that was what that was all about! Were you involved with the ramp? ChesterW is very secretive. All I knew was that the ramp was very non-linear at start-of-sweep, and I was brought in to fix it. Solved that in a couple of days. Fortunately I had a minimum fee specified in my contract ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions, 
              by understanding what nature is hiding. 

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that 
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Fast triggered linear ramps are tricky. Things tend to jump and ring and even undershoot at the start. Keeping jitter low is fun too.

The obvious discharge element, a discrete mosfet, is generally a bad choice.

The constant-current source gets interesting for nanosecond ramp times.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Yep. Current sources aren't perfect. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions, 
              by understanding what nature is hiding. 

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that 
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie
Reply to
Jim Thompson

A TDR doesn't generally need a super quality timing ramp.

Fast accurate linear ramps, say 10 bits accuracy in 10 ns, are great fun. PNPs have DC base current errors and finite-Ft errors and love to oscillate. Every semiconductor junction is a nonlinear capacitor. Tempcos are everywhere. Things hop and ring at the start. FR4 capacitance is terrible. Reset takes time so one ramp can affect the next one. Enough jitter makes the whole thing pointless. And good parts go EOL!

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

I did the single-diode sampler, edge generators, and sampling-loop front end. Chester did the rep rate oscillator, delay generator, and stuff.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

http://electrooptical.net 
http://hobbs-eo.com
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

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