Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London - Page 2

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Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk (greenaum) writes:
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with the hardware
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Even more points for USAans.

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Intercepts aren't free, even using SVM/VT-X.  Then there is the cost
for nested paging (22 memory references per TLB fill instead of 4).

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Most quality EGA/HGA/VGA graphics couldn't be done with BIOS calls.

scott

Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London

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Basically because you cant trap illegal behaviour
if apps can do anything they like with the hardware.

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The OS doing hardware access that way is an entirely separate issue.

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Not enough to matter, its not that uncommon a word in english.

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Not all direct hardware access involves interrupts.

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And is a lot harder to do when interrupts arent involved.

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Win stopped using the bios LONG ago. Its basically just used in the boot phase
now.

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Hell of a lot more than that with comms apps alone.

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Yes, but some hardware needs more than that.

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Depends on what you call business software.

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Yep.


There is no still with computer control of fancy equipment.

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#

You should preceed that sort of thing with just -- on a line by itself,
then the better usenet clients can strip it auto when replying.



Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London

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 #
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should be "-- " on a line by itself, the space is important.

--
tagline flames are always a waste of bandwidth.


Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
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Actually in modern PC's there is an increase in BIOS use. Windows and other
32bit protected mode operating systems stopped using the BIOS as the
BIOS vendors never wrote protected mode friendly code. A modern PC with
an ACPI BIOS provides a bytecode that can be executed in the OS kernel
to do chipset specific operations in an OS neutral way. ATI also do
a similar thing in their video card ROMS for certain setup operations
as well. Suspending and resuming a modern laptop is done this way as are
a lot of the motherboard device discovery/power managment.

This bytecode approach gives the OS vendor a way of controlling the processor
mode and leaves it up to the OS to make sure the bytecode interpreter
is suitable for the OS environment. These BIOSs are not without their bugs
but the situation is getting better especially since newer versions of
Windows don't tolerate bugs in these bits of code.

Makes you wish they had done it this way in the first place although I'd
imagine the performance penalty on even a 486 would be shocking.

Mike

Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
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phase now.

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Not to anything like the level seen with DOS.

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They stopped using the BIOS for a lot more reasons than that.

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And there arent all that many chipset specific ops to do with normal ops.

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Irrelevant to what is being discussed.

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Irrelevant to what is being discussed.

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And thats why it wasnt done that way.



Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
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phase now.
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Actually, probably even more so.  Sometime you should try to broaden
your horizens and spend some time looking into SMM.   The SMM handler
which is part of the BIOS executes _very_ frequently (and invisibly)
while Windows, Linux, Solaris, OS/2, et. al. are executing, particularly
when the power saving features of the system are in use.

And most operating system interactions with the hardware platform are
handled by the ACPI bytecode as others have noted.

scott

Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
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phase now.

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Wrong with normal ops like reads and writes to the drives etc.

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into SMM.

No need, I know what its about.

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Pity the drive ops aint. Video in spades. Comms in spades. Etc etc etc.



Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
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Me either.  I ran OS/2 and my recollection is that it ran DOS programs
better than Windows did and ran the majority of the Windows programs just as
well as Windows itself did, and a few much better than Windows did.  When I
installed OS/2 I set it up for dual boot, as I was expecting that there
would be some DOS or Windows programs I'd have problems with.  In practice I
rarely booted to Windows.  In those cases I think it was only to run a
couple of games that wouldn't run correctly in OS/2.

Things changed over time, of course.  When the newer versions of Windows
came along and OS/2 could't keep up with them I eventually had to give up on
it and switched to Windows.

I also well recall my surprise after doing so the second time the machine
crashed.  Not the first time, as I'd managed to crash OS/2 on a few rare
occasions.  But when Windows crashed on me the second time, in the same day,
it really gave me pause.  I adjusted, of course, as everyone did.  But after
having OS/2 run for months without shutting down, it was a real annoyance to
have Windows crashing a couple of times a week.  Sometimes more often.  And
learning to shut down when I was done for the day, so Windows wouldn't crash
due to running out of resources.

    - Bill


Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London

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And generations of computer users got trained to expect the OS to crash
all the time and have to run malware protection all the time.

--
The Chinese pretend their goods are good and we pretend our money
is good, or is it the reverse?

Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
(Walter Bushell) writes:

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And that, to me, is Microsoft's greatest crime against humanity.

--
/~\   snipped-for-privacy@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
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Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London

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Hey, if you didn't like the warranty (which amounted to "This diskette is
guaranteed to be a diskette; oh, and by the way you can't sue us for
anything else no matter what happens") you didn't have to play.  Still
don't.

But, that said, I completely agree with you.  We could have had our
flying cars and vacation homes on the Moon by now without all that lost
productivity.

--
Roland Hutchinson        

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
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Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London

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those as Windows did.

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Nope, particularly apps that dealt with the hardware directly. Comms
apps in spades, and they universally banged on the hardware directly.

There are still quite a few of them around, mostly used for
more obscure stuff like PLCs and hardware controllers etc.

Games in spades.

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did, and a few much better than Windows
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Thats wrong too, particularly the stuff that didnt things the way they were
supposed to be done.

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would be some DOS or Windows programs
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cases I think it was only to run a couple
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You clearly werent using the PC for controlling any obscure hardware.

The lack of support for games alone killed the OS/2 market
in the days before consoles dominated the games market.

You still see the same problem with games and linux today.

And hardware that isnt bog standard in spades.

Even just with a PVR, there is much less support in linux and none in OS/2 at
all.

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along and OS/2 could't keep up with them
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And those who need to use anything at all unusual hardware
wise never bothered with OS/2 and games in spades.

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Yes, it was technically much more bullet proof, but it never could do a
damned thing about the fact that no one much bothered with supporting
OS/2 with native apps and with hardware and games in spades.

Even very basic stuff like support for USB devices was pathetic.



Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
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I was running the DOS version of ProComm under OS/2.  There was some,
admittedly obscure, setting that had to be changed in the program profile to
permit direct hardware access.  Once that was done it worked fine. In fact,
doing some comm software testing, I ran ProComm in it's host mode to out one
comm port to a modem, and my test software through another comm port to
another modem and dialed up my own machine.  I used my OS/2 system mostly as
a development platform for DOS programs and a few Windows apps as well.

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Mostly legacy machine control or financial applications these days.

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Perhaps.  I didn't play a lot of games.

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Your experience was rather radically different than mine and, apparently,
others.

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Modems, printers, scanners, machine tools, that sort of thing.

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The few games I used ran fine, with a couple of exceptions.  But I did hear
this particular complaint quite a bit at the time.

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    - Bill


Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
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that so many wanted to continue to use
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permit direct hardware access.  Once that
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But it didnt run better than it did on Win or DOS.

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machine.  I used my OS/2 system mostly as a
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But it didnt run better than it did on Win or DOS.

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Nope, quite a few apps used to program hardware.

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But the market did. Thats what matters as far as it flying was concerned.

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did, and a few much better than Windows
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I didnt even say what my experience was and you just ignored the point
I made that they didnt run better under OS/2 than under DOS or Win.

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Not one of whom used OS/2 for programming devices etc.

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was only to run a couple of games that
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Nothing obscure about any of those.

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this particular complaint quite a bit at
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And it was what killed OS/2's prospects stone dead in the market.

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Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London
I thought I recognized your "style."  I should have looked you up earlier.
I probably wouldn't have bothered to respond at all.

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Yes, it did.

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Yes, it did.

As did my editors, compilers, linkers, and so on.  The only thing that
didn't work well was the debugger.  But even at that it was better than
Windows, because the debugger wouldn't work at all under Windows.

That was a lot of the point of using OS/2 rather than Windows.  Bit the
really big point was that if a program being tested went weird, and they
often did, under Windows more often than not I had to hit RESET to recover.
Under OS/2 I just closed the window with the errant program and moved on.

As for the rest of your comments, ...

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I, and others, have commented from personal experience.  I'll listen to
people who have "been there and done that" but there's no point at all in a
discussion with someone who doesn't have, or won't share, their own
experiences.

Game over.

    - Bill


Re: Rare Apple I computer sells for $216,000 in London

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probably wouldn't have bothered to
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You never ever could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

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admittedly obscure, setting that had to be