OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor? - Page 4

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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?

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What is the problem with an 'out of date' kernel? If it works, it
works. Bug fixes can often be backported without much problems.

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The same goes for any PC videocard.

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I see the same problem with the RP if Broadcom doesn't provide a new
graphics driver.

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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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And when it doesn't support newer hardware, it doesn't support newer
hardware.  Bug fixes, and in particular newer features and drivers, can
/not/ be backported without a lot of effort.

In our particular case, we wanted support for a particular wireless
interface.  I wasn't directly involved, so I don't know the details, but
we were faced with the choice of decent graphics or wireless connection,
but not both without a great deal of time and effort.

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No, the same does not apply to PC video cards for two reasons.  One is
that the third-party work commissioned by Freescale was badly done, and
very tightly tied to the kernel version (so much so that it raises
immediate suspicions of gpl violations).  Secondly, Freescale dropped
all efforts to support and update these drivers as soon as they had
started promoting the next version of the iMX device.

In the world of PC video cards, there is a better (though far from
perfect) separation between the closed-source drivers and the kernel,
the manufacturers make drivers to support a range of video cards and
usually keep support for older cards in their newer drivers, and they
try to keep reasonably up-to-date with kernel changes.

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Yes indeed, this could well occur, and it is a risk with the way
Broadcom is doing the drivers for the graphics unit (rather than
providing documentation for an open-source effort).  We can only hope
that the Pi will help put pressure onto Broadcom to release its drivers
as open source, or to provide the required documentation to let others
write drivers.  It has happened with some of Broadcom's WiFi drivers,
and may happen here too.

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?

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Well, "if it works".  We got caught by that with an ARM9 Linux board.  The
manufacturer's plan seemed to be to design bespoke products, then make some
more money by offering the hardware on the open market (nothing wrong with
that idea, IMHO.)  But the original customer got a 2.4 kernel and wanted
nothing more.  USB was the major I/O on the board, and all the really useful
USB features came in kernel version 2.6.  We couldn't upgrade ourselves
because of proprietary SD card drivers.  The original customer didn't want
an upgrade.  The manufacturer wouldn't release an upgrade.  There we were.  
Mini-ITX boards work just fine.

    Mel.


Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?

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Still some parts of the PI are closed tight, NDA's and that stuff, which
is what turned me completely off after the initial enthusiasm.
So any competition in that field is welcome, especially if it brings more
openness.

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:10:28 +1100, Chris Baird

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Um, not.  That is the GUI/DE that eats all that RAM.  The actual
functionality is maybe 5 to 10 % of that.  Basic running interactively,
with a file system was done in 16 K on a 6502.  You have heard of
bloatware.
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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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 > Um, not. That is the GUI/DE that eats all that RAM. The actual
 > functionality is maybe 5 to 10 % of that.

Are you using the Hollywood edition of C++ with Gibson extensions
enabled? (Usually installed under the name 'Java'.)

Memory usage while compiling KDE4 C++ sources from the command line:

  PID USERNAME PRI NICE   SIZE   RES STATE      TIME   WCPU    CPU COMMAND
 1333 root      25    0   332M  316M CPU/0      0:17 96.03% 57.03% cc1plus
 1351 root      85    0    48M   32M pager_/4   0:00  2.47%  1.46% as

316MB in use by the compiler. C++ is Peeeg. And then there's Java, which
is Mrs Peeeeg after 8 years of marriage..

And it was said this proposed supercheap 64MB RAM RaspberryPi killer
would run Android and its Java systems. Uh, you need at least 768MB of
RAM for Android to be usable at all.

--
C,,

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 10:42:25 +1100, Chris Baird

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The toolchain were not on the RPi. It was just the target.  Just the same
your point has been made, those toolchains take gigs.

?-)

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
joseph snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net says...
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So to do any programming of the RPi,  you still need a PC with Linux
either native or in a virtual machine.  Of course the same is true of
any other low-cost system.

It does seem disingenuous to promote the idea that you could do
significant hardware and  C software development with the RPi and just
a keyboard, monitor and mouse.  You really need a PC and a second
keyboard, monitor and mouse unless you plan to switch a lot of cables
when you want to test your software.


Mark Borgerson


Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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Compiling KDE is a pretty extreme example. I find it rather disingenuous to
dismiss the device as unfit for any purpose just because it isn't everything
for everyone, especially when the complaints are about things that weren't
design goals in the first place.

-a

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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Very good point!!

By the way, who did set the design goals in the first place ?

Was anyone here on the committee to set the design specs ??


Anyone ??????

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?

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That would be faster but you don't need an extra keyboard and monitor.
You can work remote from a Linux system. Mount the filesystem of the
RP using fuse and have the RP use the Linux system as X server for
output.

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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?


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nah, if the PC is linux just run an X server (if this term is
unfamiliar,  look it up, it's probably not what you think) on
the RPI and leave everything plugged into it.

or get a KVM switch. or just do non-graphical apps....

If it's windows (I know of people who run GCC on windows) you could
perhaps use rdesktop or VNC instead.

--
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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?

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Better use Xming if you want to use X 'remotely'. Works like a charm
and its pretty cheap.

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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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I use Cygwin for the X server and Putty for the serial client.  Works
great.  I even run my accounting system remotely over SSH when I'm away.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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You are complaining about high memory requirements when compiling KDE4?
  Have you any concept about how big KDE4 is?  KDE4 is a marvellous
desktop environment, if you like that sort of thing - but it is huge.
It is too big to run on such devices, never mind compile.

Compiling software is typically more demanding (in memory, disk space,
and often cpu capacity) than running it.  But for most uses, you don't
compile system software or standard applications - you get them as
binaries with the distribution.

The software compiled on a system like this is mostly small programs -
such as those written by the user themselves - and thus they take small
amounts of memory to compile.


Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
 > You are complaining about high memory requirements when compiling
 > KDE4? Have you any concept about how big KDE4 is? KDE4 is a
 > marvellous desktop environment, if you like that sort of thing - but
 > it is huge. It is too big to run on such devices, never mind compile.

The RSS stats I posted where from compiling one C++ file. It should've
been the point that compiling a C++ program can need a significant
amount of real RAM-- far more than the 64MB in the ChokoPi that
Dontronics proposes selling.

 >> So to do any programming of the RPi, you still need a PC with Linux
 >> either native or in a virtual machine.

False. Both models of the RPi will have 256MB, which is more than enough
to do self-hosting software builds (for everything but large C++
projects, and Java environments..)

--
Chris

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
There must be some smaller C/C++ compilers left in the world besides
just gcc, right?  I mean, there were C (not C++) compilers back in the
days of 8-bit PCs with 64kB of memory, and while, yeah, they weren't as
fancy as the ones we have today, they did work and produced
reasonably-sized executables that ran a lot faster than BASIC.

I've got to believe that a decent C compiler that requires no more 1MB
while compiling reasonably-sized programs would be entirely viable.

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:44:44 +1100, Chris Baird

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Well, it seems you have finally come to your point.  On the other hand =
the
RPi folks are targeting a bit different market segment than the others.
Maybe comparison in not appropriate, and may never be.  Then again the
others are shipping, so far the RPi is still promises and samples.

?-)

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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Oh yeah, Mix C!  I wrote an 8048 assembler and various other tools in it...

It seemed pretty good at the time (and of course was much, much cheaper
than, e.g., Borland or Microsoft C).  ...and it doesn't seem like C code
today is that much different -- at least not the stuff I write for
microcontrollers: I toss around more "const" keywords, but that's about it.

Looks like they're still around: http://www.mixsoftware.com/ .

---Joel

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On a sunny day (Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:38:52 -0700) it
 happened Joel Koltner

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I used Software Toolworks C80 C compiler on a z80 CP/M system.
Not only did it fit on a 250 kB floppy,
it it took little space to compile complicated code in less than 48 kB (kilo
byte) RAM.

I still have some of those old sources, but the 5 1/4 inch floppy with that
compiler
no longer wanted to load (read error).

I have often wondered why all the gcc crap gets so big.
And that C80 compiler had a floating point lib too.
Mind you, integer was 16 bits...
I leaned to write code in a minimal C set, since those
days my programs are very portable...
And it has in line asm too....

Much of the extension to the C language is perhaps to cater for those who
cannot program or have amnesia, or even worse altzheimer,

In those day you still had to worry about not using too many spaces and linefeeds
else the RAM would fill up too fast.
Unfortunately the modern script kiddies seem to think spaces are still expensive,
and write C without those whenever possible.
#include<stdlib.h>                                                              
                                                                                
                                          

#include<stdio.h>                                                              
                                                                                
                                          

main(int argc,char**argv){int
i,many10%,half_a_bit=2;for(i=0;i<many;i+=half_a_bit)exit(1);

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