Will raspberry get ECC support?

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Was reading this:
 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/01/linus-torvalds-blames-intel-for-lack-of-ecc-ram-in-consumer-pcs/?comments=1

with ever more RAM (now 8 GB) and raspberry used more and more for very serious things
should that not be the next step?

grin

Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
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   A large-scale study of Google servers found that roughly 32 percent
   of all servers (and 8 percent of all DIMMs) in Google's fleet
   experience at least one memory error per year.

...i.e. about one error per server per three years. (Perhaps even lower
frequency on consumer hardware since it generally has less RAM.) I don?t
think consumers should expect to see their computers get noticably more
reliable overall if ECC RAM does become ubiquitous, because that failure
rate is totally swamped by software bugs.

I have once seen a inarguable memory error in the wild, affecting the
cached copy of /bin/cat on a Linux box, about 20Y ago.

--  
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
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The Pi is a low cost computer.  Given that ECC requires more memory (36 bits
for every 32 of data), who is paying?

(noting that ECC is extremely uncommon in mobile devices, 36-bit wide LPDDR4
chips may be hard to find)

Theo

Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 16:37:28 +0000, Theo wrote:

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for-lack-of-ecc-ram-in-consumer-pcs/?comments=1
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From an article in The Register, if you're running on fairly recent Intel  
chips you won't have ECC memory unless you're on Xeons - none of their  
consumer-grade of laptop MPUs support ECC, and because they don't, the  
motherboards don't have the data lines needed to connect the extra bits.
  

--  
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Martin    | martin at
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Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 18:12:30 -0000 (UTC)

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RAM is enormously more reliable than it was forty years ago and of
course much more compact. Early digital video equipment was built with
RAM ICs (1-16k*bits*) in sockets because of their poor reliability,
which became poorer still because of the sockets. A machine built around
a Data General Nova had three diagnostics available for its 32kB of RAM,
which was made of 256 1kb ICs (on two 15" square PCBs). Video frame
stores, needing half a megabyte, only became practical as reliability
and density got much higher.

--  
Joe


Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
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My current laptop comes in an i9-10885H and a Xeon W-10885M version (among
other options).  They're identical but for the ECC support - they're the
same die, but the i9 has ECC disabled.  This is just Intel's market
segmentation.  There's no reason why they couldn't enable ECC across many of
their parts if they wanted to - which is what AMD has done.

Theo

Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?

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I wish. I think it's very doubtful Broadcom will do that. It's up to
them to add that support in the SoC's memory controller first.

Still, the RPi might actually make a decent ARM based computer one of
these years. I just saw a mini-ITX carrier board for the compute module
4 at
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/over-board-raspberry-pi-4-mini-itx-motherboard#/
but I'll pass. I'd like two SATA ports and one m.2. Odroid H2 but in a
standard form factor and an ARM CPU in other words.

As for a PC with ECC RAM, my file server has it and it wasn't that
expensive a system but then it's already quite old. I'm planning to
upgrade my gaming and general desktop PC soon and for that ECC RAM seems
very slow and somewhat expensive compared to non-ECC.

Oh and as for Intel's stupidity in this and other market segmentation
ideals I fully agree with Torvalds. I don't think it's a particularly
bold position either as the Ars article says, more like stating the
obvious.

Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
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Something everyone here seems to be missing is that ECC provides some  
degree of protection from deliberate attacks meant to flip bits or read  
arbitrary portions of memory otherwise off-limits.  The best known of  
these is Rowhammer.  Now, I grant that a new Rowhammer attack has been  
discovered that works even on ECC memory.  It does show, however, that  
better ECC memory design might entirely fix this problem.  That was a  
big part of Linus's concerns.


--  
David Griffith
snipped-for-privacy@661.org


Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Jan 2021 22:50:44 -0000 (UTC)) it happened snipped-for-privacy@661.org

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I was more thinking along the lines where people board SpaceX flights to Mars
and bring the lightest possible personal computers with them: raspberries
High radiation levels...
Or astronauts in earth orbit, or high altitude flights...
Moonbase

Sitting on Mars without a raspberry to play with ...imagine...
As to radiation, I moved house a month or so ago, been logging radiation for years
 
http://panteltje.com/pub/background_radiation_from_one_place_to_the_other.gif
  note the sudden increase,
  those are counts per minute from  
   http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic/

Why?
 Maybe the neighbors are building a bomb?
the extra radiation dropped a bit after I hovered the place a couple of times but not much.



Of course ECC would be nice to have once the rad levels go way up when trump presses the red button in despair.
Or maybe he will just ask for political asylum in Saudi Arabia...

zorry for drifting on the topic

Yes, rowhammer, not much is safe, long ago when hacking was less known I hacked some sat pay-TV, did not take long.
Nothing is safe IMO.
You have to be just willing, motivated, dedicated, removed it from my site when some politica started jumping on a chair
and screamed 'Hackers!!' like that woman in the cartoon does when she sees a mouse, calls the cat, well you know who always wins
no not the cat.

This is very recent and nice:
 https://ninjalab.io/a-side-journey-to-titan/
I did read the paper last night and those guys have the dedication and persistence, nice work!


Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 08:23:38 GMT

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    Is there a radon barrier under your house ?

--  
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
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Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On 09/01/2021 08:57, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
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If so its normal for a granite style area.
get worried when it isn't a click every 5 seconds, but a high pitched  
scream.....


Normal background is around 5mS/Yr
Granite areas up to 20mS/yr
Some places up to 200mS/yr.

The amount before cancer risks measurably increase is massively more.

The amount before the Japanese government declares an emergency is  
massively less.

The amount before Jane Fonda declares an emergency is zero.


--  
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and  
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Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On a sunny day (Sat, 9 Jan 2021 09:24:59 +0000) it happened The Natural

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:-)
Yea, anyways I also designed and build a gamma spectrometer, been some years since I played with all that,
was even subscribed to some related google group at the time.
The gamma spectrometer and that GM counter is sitting next to me:
 http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG
  had no time yet to look a this, the PMT (in the large green cardboard tube) needs changing (old Russian one abused by me).

And I have this one in pieces somewhere:
 http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/sc_pic/
   much better PMT, using scintillator crystals from ebay....
   note the radium and uranium samples
   been 'under construction' for >14 years now....
    nuclear war did not happen yet... ;-)

And and, well...
this one is smaller and also gives very high levels here:
 http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/
  it records GPS location and radiation level to SDcard, can be used for prospecting...
   my adventure in using / programming OLED displays..



Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On 09/01/2021 10:41, Jan Panteltje wrote:
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 From what I have read on latest research radiation is not a significant  
hazard beyond about 50% more than the blast radius anyway.
If you dont get vapourised or smashed to bits, you probably wont die of  
cancer.

The LNT model which was used to scare people in the 1960s has been  
completely discredited.


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what are you using as a detector?


--  
Of what good are dead warriors? ? Warriors are those who desire battle  
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump  
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Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On a sunny day (Sat, 9 Jan 2021 11:58:52 +0000) it happened The Natural

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Indeed, I worked in nuculear {} twice... the first time I quit the first day as I found the guys were careless.
Then serendipity had it I worked there again, in an other department, years later.
Some years after I left and started my own business I did read in the paper that whole place got contaminated..

It all depends.
Later ... we had the Chernobyl fallout, and where I worked the filters in the aircos were hot (radiation) and had to be properly disposed.
That made me want to measure things, by that time I lost my nuculear fear btw,
But nobody died, vegetables in your garden you were not recommended to eat.
I did see a youtube video about the Chernobyl area where wildlife is flourishing,
mostly due to the absence of people hunting it I think.
That video was removed...

In the F*ckupshima disaster exactly 1 person died of radiation IIRC.
Hundreds die each year in coal mine accidents..

Ruling the masses by fear is what governments do now, I did lookup some numbers
and here in 2018 more people died than in 2020..
Big farma sells and it sells untested mRNA shit that several very healthy people have already died from and is not tested over generations,
so will the kids you have be OK? Remember softenon.
It is about big money control and politicians that are puppets of big money and completely clueless about medicine
but abuse the lockdown to control everything from chat groups to people moving about.
UNLESS there is a revolt they will keep locking everybody down then give you a chip implant
so they can remotely kill you if you do not comply with their follies, now they use the police for that.
OK,  


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That one uses a small geiger muller tube, basically contains gas between 2 high voltage electrodes that gets ionized if high energy particles hit it
and then becomes conductive for a moment causing a small current peak.
Several such high energy particles per minute is normal at ground level, on airplane level with less protection by the atmosphere  
much more, in space even more than that  
scroll down for the picture of the tube next to the GPS module, or:
 http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/gm_pic2_component_side_IMG_4408.JPG

For gamma spectrometer I use crystals from ebay in front of the photo-multiplier tubes like these:
 NaI(Tl) 30x30 Scintillation Crystal Detector
or plastic Scintillation rods
 
http://panteltje.com/pub/crystal_relatve_to_world_img_3123.jpg
both give of a light flash when a high energy particle hits, this is then amplified very many times by the PMT (photo mutiplier) so you
get an other impulse that you can count, and in the case of that setup can measure the amplitude of,
this amplitude is related to the amount of energy for each particle, and that depends on what material is 'decaying' releasing the particle
so you can identify what radiates, and see who's bomb it was.... from the spectral composition.
Enough info?


  


Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
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From "Int. J. Cancer: 119, 1224?1235 (2006)" via
https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/44334601/Estimates_of_the_cancer_burden_in_Europe20160402-19341-ugwo1h.pdf

"The risk projections suggest that by now Chernobyl may have caused about
1,000 cases of thyroid cancer and 4,000 cases of other cancers in Europe,
representing about 0.01% of all incident cancers since the accident. Models
pre- dict that by 2065 about 16,000 (95% UI 3,400?72,000) cases of thy-
roid cancer and 25,000 (95% UI 11,000?59,000) cases of other can- cers may
be expected due to radiation from the accident, whereas several hundred
million cancer cases are expected from other causes. Although these
estimates are subject to considerable uncertainty, they provide an
indication of the order of magnitude of the possible impact of the
Chernobyl accident. It is unlikely that the cancer bur- den from the
largest radiological accident to date could be detected by monitoring
national cancer statistics. Indeed, results of analyses of time trends in
cancer incidence and mortality in Europe do not, at present, indicate any
increase in cancer rates?other than of thyroid cancer in the most
contaminated regions?that can be clearly attributed to radiation from the
Chernobyl accident."

Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On 09/01/2021 14:19, A. Dumas wrote:
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Well yes, the 'risk projections' is a mealy mouthed way of saying  
'models based on assumptions'

At least the conclusions is 'too small to be reliably measured'

And what assumptions? LNT?

Almost certainly because no one else has really come up with anything  
more accurate. We know LNT is between 100 and 1000 times too  
pessimistic, at any elevated dose levels and the truth is that peak  
dosage is far more important than cumulative chronic low level dosage.

Exclusion zone at Chernobyl is quite low - there are hot spots but  
mostly its in the 20-50mSv/y level. Ramsar in Iran has a background of  
50-200mSv/y. It has a lightly *lower* cancer rate than average. (it's  
not statistically significant IIRC)

The key to cellular mutations seems to be to get enough radiation to  
cause BOTH strands of DNA to mutate identically before  the cell dies.  
That a very slender chance at low dosages.

If you get radiotherapy *enough radiation to kill you* if applied whole  
body is given. Several Sv in a short time. There is a 15% increased  
chance of unrelated cancers developing as a result.

And that's it. a few people died at Hiroshima  from radiation induced  
cancers a few years later, but the majority of people died then and  
there from blast and incineration or in the next few weeks from massive  
radiation exposure. Hiroshima was never cleaned up, and its a healthy  
place to live now.





--  
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin


Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On 09/01/2021 14:19, A. Dumas wrote:
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There was a recent study in the UK suggesting air pollution (not  
nuclear) caused 36,000 deaths a year in just the UK.

Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:53:51 +0000, Pancho wrote:

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Just recently NOx air pollution was given as the sole cause of death for  
an asthmatic girl in London who lived close to the South Circular road,  
which carries a lot of HGV traffic. She died in 2013. NOx levels in  
London have risen since then.


--  
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Martin    | martin at
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Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
wrote:

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I'm not even sure one died, although I've not been following those aspects
that closely. Meanwhile 25,000 or so are missing/dead from the tsunami.

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Which untested mRNA would that be, then?

--  
Tim



Re: Will raspberry get ECC support?
On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 14:29:32 +0000, TimS wrote:

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that final paragraph from Jan destroyed any credibility he may have had &  
is simply not worth continuing further  




--  
Second Law of Business Meetings:
    If there are two possible ways to spell a person's name, you
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