VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

Nov 12, 2023 Last reply: 2 years ago 150 Replies

X> $ purge foobar.txt

Yes, I remember those periodic purges.

I did like the customisable editor too and, IIRD, the ability to attach customisations to file types. If there was an open source version of that editor I might even be using it still.

Worked well too - one of the better COBOL implementations .

The Rdb module.

The one real thumbs-down feature of the project, and the one that sank it, was the bloody awful James Martin Associates system design method and its almost equally poor diagramming rules. I mean, how can a usable Data Structure Diagram ever be built when the overall system design rules forbid you from adding any data items to entities but still let you insert relationships between entities? Straight away this means you have: (a) no way of verifying that the relationship is needed (b) no way of validating end-to-end data flows through the system DSD.

IOW there's no way that you can verify the DSD, let alone get it reviewed and signed off.

...and meanwhile we, the database design team, were never able to build built a schema because the system designers never did hand us a usable DSD to work from.

That surprised me because I'd bought a copy of James Martin's "Design of Man-Computer Dialogs" - IMO one of the best books on application system design I've ever seen. I bought my copy about ten years prior to that fiasco and used it extensively when a small team of us were building BBC Radio Three's music planning system: This was a complex system that had to track and record every stage of building and broadcasting a concert from the producer's original idea, checking that it wasn't too similar to any other concert that would be broadcast around the target date, tracking and booking all the performers and then, after the broadcast, making sure they were paid as well as handling the repeat fees paid to performers if any parts of a concert are rebroadcast later.

I doubt that this system, known as Orpheus, would have gone together half so well without the ideas in that book,

For the record, it was built on an ICL 2966 mainframe, written in COBOL and using IDMSX, a Codasyl database, as its data store. A BBC internal team, with me as an external member, had completed that that about ten years before the fiasco on the VAX.

IIRC there were even JMA consultants on the team that failed complete the financial system on the VAX, but despite their presence, We never did get a completed data structure to work from before the project collapsed.

Had forgotten about Z/OS ... a bit out of my price range at this point alas :-)

Most of those old Big Iron systems were very well designed. No reason to completely throw them away. Unix is rather "aged" these days too - but it's still an inspired model, still suited to build upon.

There's still a market for mainframes. McDonalds Corp does NOT run on a iPad. Worldwide biz, supply/financial logistics, soon you're using SERIOUS computing power and need a SERIOUS super-reliable/flexible OS to make it go. Wire a few of those big black IBM boxes together .....

If VMS has a future, it's going to start with those sorts of uses.

Heh, heh ... I didn't let them "straighten out" anything for nearly 40 years. Found a floppy set of Windows For Workgroups the other day - KNEW I had those SOMEWHERE :-)

I'll have to see if I can install them on VirtualBox ...

Found a photo of my office done over 20 years ago ... a lot of the same books still on the shelf.

Got my MS Access 1.x manual, my Turbo Pascal v1 manual and IBM/MS Pascal manual. A 300 page VMS manual, a VIC-20 programming guide, several books on PICs back when the 16x series was top of the line. Lots of electronics books, some of which include vacuum tube diagrams that parallel the "newfangled" transistor circuits. Even have an IBM-PC Technical Reference Manual (with all those things "you don't need to know" ....

In any case, I practice the "archeological" filing method ... older = deeper in the piles :-)

I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today. Sometimes they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise they run on a mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN storage (lots of NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet. Infrastructure as a service they call it.

If you mean EVE based on Vax/TPU it was ported to Unix, circa ~1995, SunOS, or possibly Solaris. So it is possible there is a version floating about.

Apparently there's an emulation of EVE available for Emacs.

Most run such workloads in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI.

Arne

There was also nuTPU for PC. Was as in "35 years ago". I don't think they exist anymore.

EVE <> TPU

Mapping EVE keyboard definition in Emacs should be piece of cake.

Getting TPU code interpreted in Emacs is a different thing. TPU is Pascal like not Lisp like. :-)

Arne

Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and allow the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure without having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads in a private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.

Yes it can ANOTHER command, big deal - vi is an editor and you can run a command from it, so what.

As I said above find finds stuff in the filesystem that match some conditions. The fact that the filesystem is complex, so the condition matching is complex is by-the-by.

Find does one thing and does it well.

Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time ago, if you want.

COPY under VMS only does one thing as well, which is just copying files. So I still do not think VMS is really much different from Unix. The OP seems to have been using VMS with some additional layer which conflated the view, and don't really expose how one normally interacts with VMS. And that twisted experiece seems to have been the reason for the comment to start with. So I think we can lay this whole thread down.

Johnny

Emacs springs to mind.

Originated outside Unix, I think.

dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool, and it’s at best an uneasy fit with the “do one thing well” approach of many of its siblings.

Emacs is not a native Unix program.

It originated as a library of functions written in an enhanced TECO for the PDP-10 that ran under ITS (MIT), TENEX (BBN), and TOPS-20 (TENEX with the serial numbers filed off by DEC).

It was ported to an MIT dialect of LISP running under Multics, then versions for the MIT inspired Lisp machines came along.

The C ports (including GNU) hark back to these Lisp versions.

So there's no reason to expect Emacs to be a Unix style program.

Indeed.

dd was intentionally designed to mimic the behavior of OS/360 Job Control Language's Data Definition (DD) cards. It does that thing, and that thing only, very well.

So dd has the Unix Nature (R).

Well - Emacs don't really come from the Unix world to start with...

But systemd always comes to my mind...

Johnny

Yes. PDP-10s. If it was ITS or TOPS-20 at the start, I dare not say. Written in TECO.

I have some recollection that dd's interface comes from something like IBMs OS/360. But I could be very wrong on that one.

Johnny

Emacs has nothing to do with Unix other than the fact that someone ported it late in the game.

bill

git is actually a collection of programs, when you run

git command args

it actually runs

git-command args

You can even write your own git utilities, call them git-something and put them on PATH, and they will run when you do

git something

---druck

True - Teco editing macros originally.

I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

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