Yet another bulging-capacitors replacement

Yes, but...

Heat conduction A further advantage of BGA packages over packages with discrete leads (i.e. packages with legs) is the lower thermal resistance between the package and the PCB. This allows heat generated by the integrated circuit inside the package to flow more easily to the PCB, preventing the chip from overheating.

When the PCB is so close to the bottom of the BGA package, whatever heat is produced is radiated directly to the PCB. Assuming a fairly uniform case temperature (possibly a bad assumption) by conduction, the radiated heat out the bottom of the BGA case has to go somewhere. It can't accumulate or it would just continue to heat up until it melts. So, it heats the PCB.

I think you'll find that unless there's a hidden insulator somewhere in the package, the bottom case temperature will be fairly close to the top case temperature. If it were otherwise, the case would distort or in extreme cases, crack. I can work out the exact numbers, using the thermal resistance, if you give me the exact case style and dissipation in watts.

How much is "relatively"? Most (not all) BGA arrays have the chip mounted on the base. For example, see Fig 2 the wire bonded example at:

The heat will be coming out of the base, which will be hotter than the lid due to some thermal resistance in the case. Others have the chip mounted on the top. These are easily identified by the epoxy blob or metal cover on the bottom PCB side of the BGA. See:

for Intel's packaging handbook. Also see 14.10 section for a little on thermal performance. There's a section on thermal package stress at:

See section 4.2.1 under "Stresses generated during a thermal excursion".

True. Heat removal is not 100% efficient. Think of temperature as the voltage across a string of resistors (thermal resistance). Crank up the input power and each resistor has more voltage across it. However, the ratio of the various voltages and temperatures remains constant as long as the thermal resistances don't change. That means that fairly small thermal resistances, such as between the heat sink and the case, are not going to see much of a temperature change for increase dissipation, while large thermal resistances, such as the heat sink to the air, are going to see a large increase.

Sure. But the difference in temperature is still what's bending the board and breaking the bonds. That's what my guess(tm) was causing the Nvidia video chip failures in many laptops. The chip was literally tearing itself away from the PCB because the board was bending.

There's another problem with your analysis. If you assume that the edges of the PCB are at room temperature, or at least at case temperature, then the temperature gradient across the PCB will remain fairly constant as you increase board heating. The result is just a larger heat affected zone, and no real improvement in cooling. It would be like putting a computah inside a plastic bag (for waterproofing) and dumping it inside a bucket of cold water. The case will be very cool, but the CPU will still burn up inside.

True. If the thermal resistance between the chip and every component of the thermal circuit path were zero, and the thermal mass of the air were assumed to be infinite (a really bad assumption), then the chip, heatsink, case, and air temperature would all be the same. However, if any or all of these exhibit any thermal resistance, there will be a temperature difference across it.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
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Jeff Liebermann
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I just noticed table 4-14 on Page 4-24 of the above handbook. It's a table of the number of power cycles a CPU is expected to endure before failure.

4.2.2 Temperature Cycles in Operation A microprocessor package is subjected to numerous heating and cooling cycles in operation. When the device is powered up, its temperature rises, and when it is shut down, its temperature drops. The magnitude of the maximum temperature on the die surface depends on the thermal solution employed, and is usually between 80 to 125°C. In addition to these power on and power off cycles (maxi-cycles), the microprocessor is cycled between different intermediate temperature values depending upon processor usage (mini-cycles) in any application program. The Institute for Interconnecting and Packaging Electronic Circuits [2] lists the typical worst case usage conditions for personal computers and consumer electronics as given below. This table is intended only as a guideline, and individual companies use different field use conditions based on their research.

Service

As I read this, if you turn your computer on and off once a day for 5 years, the CPU could fail due to thermal fatigue. For consumer electronics, it's 1-3 year. Lovely...

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
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Jeff Liebermann

In article , Arfa Daily writes

Indeed. I think they hope the thermal compound (or phase-changing pad) will cover up a multitude of sins.

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Reply to
Mike Tomlinson

I've always suspected that it's a conspiracy by the manufacturer to consume more expensive Artic Silver. Kinda like washing your hair twice with "pH balance" shampoo.

The best heat tranfer between heat sink and CPU is metal to metal contact, with no grease. The problem is that neither the heat sink or CPU lid are flat and have pits, holes, gouges, lumps, cavities, and other problems that prevent good contact. Even without these problem, and with a mirror finish base, the typical warped package and non-stress relieved heat sink, will not produce proper metal to metal contact (without extreme mechanical pressure). My guess(tm) is that a typical "brushed" aluminum heat sink to a Pentium 4 package might have

30% or less metal to metal contact. This sucks.

The idea is to fill the pits, holes, gouges, lumps, cavities, etc with something thermally conductive, thus eliminating the need for mirror finished and flat CPU's and heat sinks. The trick is to only fill the pits, holes, gouges, lumps, cavities, etc and still retain as much metal to metal contact as possible. That's not going to happen if you use too much. As a clue, see the thermal resistance spec for Artic Silver at:

Thermal Resistance: 0.0045°C-in^2/Watt (0.001 inch layer) Notice the 0.001 inch (0.025mm) layer. That's really really really thin. So thin, that you could probably not even see it on the surface because most of the stuff is in the pits, holes, gouges, lumps, cavities, etc. If it had been specified with a thicker layer, the thermal resistance would have been much worse.

It's probably a good idea to smear on some Artic Silver on both sides of the junction, but then wipe off everything except what's in the pits, holes, gouges, lumps, cavities, etc leaving as much metal to metal contact as possible. If you're dealing with a badly warped or an unpolished casting, then a little more grease might justifiable. However, packing it on in a thick layer, but doing both sides, is a waste.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

All agreed

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

Nobody ever agrees with me. I must have said something wrong.

See:

Notice what happens to the thermal resistance as the thickness of the silicon grease layer increases. Also notice the comment about "solvent evaporation" which is why Arctic Silver and other greases takes a while to "break-in".

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# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

OK. So here's the thing. The articles that you linked to are very interesting, and at least one says that "the pcb is the primary heatsink in the case of BGAs". Given that is true, as it was Intel I think that said it, is this true for all BGAs ? If it is, then what is the point of fixing an elaborate heatsinking system to the *tops* of the BGAs, and force cooling this with a blower of over 2 amps rating, capable of ramping up to vacuum cleaner levels ? When it gets going a bit, it actually exhausts pretty hot air from these things. I would say that the heatsink gets *much* hotter than the pcb, and if you try to run the board even at idle without the heatsinks being placed, the unit goes into thermal protect inside a few seconds. If the pcb was really the "primary heatsink" in the case of these particular BGAs, I would have thought that at least when just idling, they would have run ok 'naked' ??

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

There are about 100 assorted BGA packages, most of which do not require a heat sink. You see them on video cards, cell phones, glue chips, game machines, and most commonly on memory cards. There is NO WAY your large BGA package, which probably has a big FPGA burning 200 watts inside, is going to work with just heat sinking to the PCB. The leads are the primary heat sink for the small packages, not for the monsters.

Absolutely not. Size matters.

Desperation? If you can't get the heat out via the leads, you do whatever else is necessary.

I think you'll be surprised at how close to meltdown your BGA's are running. Even a small heat producer will accumulate heat if the box isn't adequately vented. The problem is that air really sucks as a thermal conductor. It takes an awful lot of air to do very little cooling. Give me some numbers to work with. Incidentally, you might try using an IR thermometer on the heat sink, BGA, and exhaust air for a sanity check.

Yep. For BGA's without heat sinks, the primary heat conduction path is through the vias in the substrate, to the solder balls, and then to the PCB. For larger BGA's, it's through the case to a heat sink.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

in

Like Intel says, it's primary. 'Primary' does not mean the heatsink with the largest heat flux. It means the FIRST heatsink, the one that all designers start with. BGA packages have quite a lot of thermal conductivity through those soldered-down feet, it's not something to be ignored. In related news, 'prime rib' is a rib roast with the rib #1 included.

Reply to
whit3rd

The exact quote is: A considerable increase in thermal effectiveness of a BGA package can be obtained by using boards that are thermally efficient, increasing the airflow, or providing thermal paths from the board. Remember, with PBGAs, the board is your primary heatsink.

PBGA is a plastic ball grid array. I guess "primary" does make sense, since the vias going through the base are closer to the heat source than the package lid. Therefore, heat will try to exit through the leads before the lid.

Thermally conductive PCB material:

It's a wonder they don't unsolder themselves. Oh wait... Nvidia laptop video chips do that.

According to our sources, the failures are caused by a solder bump that connects the I/O termination of the silicon chip to the pad on the substrate. In Nvidia?s GPUs, this solder bump is created using high-lead. A thermal mismatch between the chip and the substrate has substantially grown in recent chip generations, apparently leading to fatigue cracking. Add into the equation a growing chip size (double the chip dimension, quadruple the stress on the bump) as well as generally hotter chips and you may have the perfect storm to take high lead beyond its limits. Apparently, problems arise at what Nvidia claims to be "extreme temperatures" and what we hear may be temperatures not too much above 70 degrees Celsius.

Note the "thermal mismatch". I have a Dell XPS1210 laptop on the bench with exactly this problem and am waiting to justify the expense of a hot air SMT rework machine.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Assuming that you're talking a 'standard' SM rework station with hot air pencil, and not a multi-thousand dollar fixed rework station, then the one I recently purchased direct from China, was just 55 quid - about $85. Bit of postage to add on of course, but at that sort of money, not too much justification required, I would suggest ? Look on eBay for KADA 852D. Very good value for money. I'm very pleased with mine. The eBay shop I bought mine from (dragondirectmall I think it was), has a video on the site of them building one, so you can get an idea of the quality.

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

$124. I saw your previous reply to someone asking about SMD rework stations. The problem with the KADA 852D is that it only includes 5 generic circular nozzles (2-10mm). I need the big square BGA nozzle assortment, which are about $100 extra from other vendors. I also can't seem to find any listing for KADA parts. The eBay listings does include one spare heater and soldering iron element. I've got two off-brand soldering irons I bought at various hamfests for which I can't find tips or repair parts. Kada looks good, but not good enough.

What I'm looking at is, at $230.

It's twice as expensive, but has all the features I want (or could possibly want later). Also, lots of parts available. The tips are a useful assortment, but I'll still need to buy some QFP nozzles at about $18/ea. I borrowed this model for about 2 weeks and really liked using it.

This is another possibility, as it includes 20 nozzles for $239:

However, it leaves out the soldering iron and desoldering iron, so it's not really a fair comparison.

What's stopping me is an impending $2,000 dental bill, which will greatly reduce my ability to buy new toys and tools.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Blimey, and I thought 200 quid was expensive for a new tooth crown ... !!

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

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Says that IPA can mean Isopropyl alcohol. Is that what you meant? If so, do you use 70 percent or 99 percent?

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Reply to
Daniel Prince

Talk about awakening the dead (thread) lol.

But now that you mentioned cats :

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jurb6006

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