Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?

Well, that would still be suing them.

There is a separate issue, of course, which is whether an appliance should fail when it's just out of the manufacturer's warranty, given that such warranties tend to be absurdly short anyway. The mere fact that a piece of gear is out of warranty doesn't mean that the manufacturer is off the hook. Depends on the jurisdiction, though.

Sylvia.

The US has laws (derived from British common law) that protect customers, and also specify the minimum time parts have to be available. These laws have been weakened over the past 20 years, and are generally not well-enforced, anyway.

When a complex Silverlit toy needed repair parts, and the importer couldn't supply them, I pointed out their legal obligations, and Silverlit USA was quick to swap out my unit for a new one. (I had threatened to complain to the FTC.)

Foreign companies apparently aren't aware of their obligations. If you can't stock spare parts (or at least sub-assemblies), you shouldn't be doing business in another country.

Which one? X-UFO?

Michael

Yup.

The lady who handles customer relations -- she seems to be the only person in Silverlit USA! -- was so nice I was embarrassed "putting the screws to her". But the unit had stopped working, and they couldn't provide any of the parts likely to fix it. I couldn't very well toss the thing in the trash.

Hi!

The control panel could have been purchased and the cost was not all together unreasonable at the time. (It has since gone up.)

However, I was not about to discard an otherwise *working* panel for want of a relay.

Taking them to court over something like this would surely involve more of an expenditure than replacing the oven. As it is, I complained to Best Buy and they did not give me any static about returning the oven to them, selecting another and paying the difference.

I don't know what happened to that GE oven. Maybe it was scrapped. They told me everything goes back to the manufactuer. It went back with a little "extra"--a note taped to the inside top of the cabinet with the burned relay firmly affixed.

Did they read it? Do they care? I have no idea. It made me feel better to have left it there, if for no other reason than its discovery would tell them that someone, somewhere really wanted to fix it instead of just buying another.

William

What's pathetic about this is that the dealer has to provide a service -- out of simple courtesy to the customer -- that the manufacturer should supply.

Given how cheap such products are, and how little profit the retailers make, manufacturers should be willing to absorb the costs of providing cheap out-of-warranty repairs.

Mechanical calculators and slide rules are still available for those that fear electronics. I have several of each.

Worse. Some stuff is actually designed for a specific lifetime. It is possible to predict the average lifetime of components by knowing their operation parameters, thermal cycles, and specs. For example:

I've seen minimalist design, where the voltage ratings on most of the caps are intentionally selected so that they all fail at roughly the same time.

However, the warranty was never intended to protect the consumer. Warranties are designed to drive the independent repair shop out of business. Shops don't make money on what the factory pays to do in-warranty repairs. They only make money on out-of-warranty work. The longer the warranty, the less profitable the independent shop.

Most buyers of extended warranties never use them. It's a cash cow for the dealers and manufacturers selling them. The initial infant mortality failures are covered under the manufacturers warranty. Unless the device is suffering from severe quality issues that have a delayed reaction, such as bogus low-ESR electrolytics, you should not see any problems until long after the product is obsolete.

Incidentally, the average lifetime of a cell phone is currently 18 months. The typical laptop is 2 years. The typical desktop about 3-5 years (depending on brand). Why bother designing anything to last longer?

My mechanical calculator and slide rules will work longer than your Brownie. I find it difficult to determine quality on initial inspection. I have to tear something apart, look inside at the components used, get some idea as to how it's built, and play with it a while to see if it does everything it claims. Tearing apart a DVD player or camera in the store is usually discouraged. I usually grab the FCC ID number, and look at the inside photos on the FCC site. I also read reviews and user experiences. Despite this, I still manage to have problems. I have about 4 cameras and *ALL* of them have been either repaired under warranty, or had some fundamental defect that required a class action suit and subsequent warranty extension. I don't do much better with computers. Everything requires firmware and driver updates. Some are so bad, that the vendor had to extend the warranty for free (BGA failure):

However, I have more than the average clue as to what it would cost to make consumer electronics sufficiently reliable. It's not just better components. It also requires better testing, design overhead, more lead time, reparability analysis, etc. Offhand, my guess(tm) is that it would at least increase the retail cost about 50-100%. Wanna pay double for better quality? Most people won't.

Not true in my state. Warrantee labor must be paid at the shop's posted rate, same as retail over the counter non-warrantee labor. The manufactures also have to pay a markup on parts used.

Many people already do. Some people shop for chinese junk at walmart, and some go to better stores and buy higher quality merchandise. In many cases, I pay 200%, 300% or more, over what a cheap product costs, because I want to get something better. You'll note that you can also buy a new car for $12,000 or $120,000. One of them may be somewhat better quality.

Which state?

In the California, such things are covered under the Business and Professional Code. Section 9800-9879 for Electronic and Appliance Repair Dealers. (Chapter 20) Consumer warranties are covered under the Calif Civil Code at: Title 1.7 Nothing on warranty reimbursement rates for electronics. There were substantial changes to the code in 2005, which protected vehicle, snowmobile, lawn mower, and powered machinery repair shops and which do require manufacturer reimbursement at shop rates.

However, I've been out of the warranty repair biz for about 12 years and have not been paying attention to the latest laws. Unless I missed something (a real possibility) and in my reading of the aforementioned sections, California warranty reimbursements are still set by contract with the manufacturer.

Fun reading:

Note the drop in warranty rates (as percent of sales) from 2007 to

I also do so, but only when I can afford it. In areas that I'm familiar with (electronics), I can usually distinguish between junk and quality. Even so, it's often difficult and I've made my share of bad purchases. I must also admit that I prefer to buy used equipment and vehicles, which are in a different class with no warranty. (Ok, I'm cheap and proud of it.) One huge advantage of buying used is that the product has been around long enough to develop a reputation. If there are any problems, the complaints will be all over the internet.

One problem with "Chinese junk" is finding an alternative. So many US industries have been "offshored" that finding a domestic manufactured equivalent (or better) has been difficult or impossible.

I must confess to throwing some money away by purchasing a used car from a dealer about 5 months ago. I overpaid because I wanted a no-hassle, no-problem, no-complications vehicle. I found one and overpaid for it. The dealer offered some free oil changes and a 30 day warranty that wasn't used. It was a good buy.

In a past life, I helped design some consumer electronics. These days, I still do some design, but mostly fix computers (because it's easier). In product design, was not unusual to spend as much time and effort on the package, cosmetics, industrial design, feel, and even the smell, of the product, as with the contents. For example, I worked on a radio that didn't sell well. The merchandising consultant declared that this was because it didn't weigh enough. When faced with multiple competing and superficially identical products, the typical consumer will usually buy the heaviest. We then added some cosmetic scrap iron and aluminum to the product to add nothing but mass. After a color and model number change (new and improved) it sold well.

Incidentally, I once worked for a manufacturer of marine radios. Consumer Reports Magazine published a comparison of various manufacturers radios. One of the competitors used the exact same electronics as we did, but inside a different package. Otherwise, they were identical. Consumer Reports gave them the grand prize, while we were near the bottom of the list. So much for impartial product testing and being able to distinguish between quality and junk.

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:55:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: (...)

If you're in Europe, you get a free 2 year unlimited extended warranty on everything:

-- Jeff Liebermann snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com

TDD

Ayup. That's pretty much how it works. Back when I worked for Canon, that sort of situation used to crop up regularly.

replacing

Sure. The LCD panel or the motherboard for a 3 year old laptop typically cost as much to buy as spare parts as brand new laptop would.

Yes, those are the spares I'm talking about. Refurbed main boards or third party LCD panels can be a lot cheaper. Of course you run the risk of getting a dud PCB or an incompatible LCD.

Ayup.

Theoretically, yes, but in practice it's totally unlike dragging someone into a court for a civil case. No lawyers, just the consumer & a rep for the seller. And there's no appeal.

Speaking as someone who spent years doing warranty service work, most manufacturers will come to the party if something fails just outside the warranty, if the purchaser sticks to their guns.

No, they're not And as somebody pointed out upthread, they often get around it by only stocking sub-assemblies at huge prices.

I don't know what the rules about that are in the USA, but here, the responsibility falls to the local reseller.

Canon used to build their laser printer engines (HP, Brother, Apple) that well. Not any more.

Back when I ran a Toshiba-authorised service centre, the warranty service rate was about $35 for 20-30 minute job. Probably 3/4s of our work was warranty work, & I managed to do it at a profit.

Consumer Reports is a fraud. They do that sort of thing on a regular basis. They are either grossly incompetent or completely crooked. Take your pick, those are the only two choices.

I lived in Capitola and in SC in the early 70's. NIce area, or it was back then.