Strange problem with low energy light bulb

You have a more complicated circuit than you think. If you have 3 switches, each capable of turning the lamp on and off irrespective of the positions of the other two switches, then the switches are not directly connected to the lamp. The switches are connected to a (-n electromechanical) relay or a solid-state relay. The relay provides power to the lamp...the switches control the relay. I suspect leakage somewhere in wiring between the switch(s) and the relay...which, if solid-state, may require only a few milliamps to trip the relay. Could also be that the control relay is defective somehow...

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webpa
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More complicated than the common two switch set-up but not necessarily that complicated. I have not traced the wiring to be sure how this particular installation works but I am reasonably sure that it does not involve a relay. I have researched how it may work and I have described that elsewhere in the thread. The switches need to be more complicated than typical. They need two inputs and two outputs. Each input is always connected to one of the outputs but the connections are reversed when the switch is changed. The live goes to one input of the first switch. The two outputs of the first switch are connected to the two inputs of the second. This continues through as many switches as you wish. Finally one output of the last switch is connected to the bulb. The neutral is connected normally. So, if any switch is changed, the live will go down the other wire through the rest of the system. Since only one output of the last switch is connected to the bulb, if it was on, it goes off but of it was off it goes on. This set-up is rare in the UK but the necessary switches are available, I have seen them in my local hardware shop. They can be used for the more typical two switch set-up by simply ignoring one of the terminals. I have read that this set-up is more commonly used in some other countries such as Spain.

-- Se=E1n =D3 Leathl=F3bhair

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=?iso-8859-1?B?U2XhbiBPJ0xlYXR

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 02:06:02 -0700, Seán O'Leathlóbhair put finger to keyboard and composed:

I've just checked the Australian fittings. Our new batten holders have bakelite collars, but the old ones were metal. There is no continuity between the collar and any other terminal, including the earth terminal (which doesn't exist on some fittings).

- Franc Zabkar

--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Reply to
Franc Zabkar

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:50:35 -0400, "JANA" put finger to keyboard and composed:

I'm also cynical about the "green" benefits of CFLs, but I found this interesting document that claims that incandescent bulbs are responsible for more mercury than CFLs.

US Environmental Protection Agency fact sheet

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CFLs Responsible for Less Mercury than Incandescent Light Bulbs

"Ironically, CFLs present an opportunity to prevent mercury from entering our air, where it most affects our health. The highest source of mercury in our air comes from burning fossil fuels such as coal, the most common fuel used in the U.S. to produce electricity. A CFL uses 75% less energy than an incandescent light bulb and lasts at least 6 times longer. A power plant will emit 10mg of mercury to produce the electricity to run an incandescent bulb compared to only

2.4mg of mercury to run a CFL for the same time."

- Franc Zabkar

--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Reply to
Franc Zabkar

That is true Frank, but often the ring is earthed which effectively connects it to the neutral pin of the socket.

Easiest way is to make a lead which plugs into the socket, and then you have access to the test leads in a more controllable situation than probing into the socket itself.

Peter Dettmann

Reply to
Peter Dettmann

No, they only need be mechanical switches.

Google "3-way switch" and "4-way switch".

Or see the info at:

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Reply to
Sam Goldwasser

More complicated than the common two switch set-up but not necessarily that complicated. I have not traced the wiring to be sure how this particular installation works but I am reasonably sure that it does not involve a relay. I have researched how it may work and I have described that elsewhere in the thread. The switches need to be more complicated than typical. They need two inputs and two outputs. Each input is always connected to one of the outputs but the connections are reversed when the switch is changed. The live goes to one input of the first switch. The two outputs of the first switch are connected to the two inputs of the second. This continues through as many switches as you wish. Finally one output of the last switch is connected to the bulb. The neutral is connected normally. So, if any switch is changed, the live will go down the other wire through the rest of the system. Since only one output of the last switch is connected to the bulb, if it was on, it goes off but of it was off it goes on. This set-up is rare in the UK but the necessary switches are available, I have seen them in my local hardware shop. They can be used for the more typical two switch set-up by simply ignoring one of the terminals. I have read that this set-up is more commonly used in some other countries such as Spain.

-- Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

And here is the way it's done - no magic, no relays or electronic control circuits - just switches and wire ...

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or

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Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

| You have a more complicated circuit than you think. If you have 3 | switches, each capable of turning the lamp on and off irrespective of | the positions of the other two switches, then the switches are not | directly connected to the lamp. The switches are connected to a (-n | electromechanical) relay or a solid-state relay. The relay provides | power to the lamp...the switches control the relay. I suspect leakage | somewhere in wiring between the switch(s) and the relay...which, if | solid-state, may require only a few milliamps to trip the relay. | Could also be that the control relay is defective somehow...

Don't think so. The first course on lighting installation I learned about crossswitches already. They could be used to turn on and off a lamp from one to three or more places. Effectively they are dpdt switches. You can of course use it for spst or simply on/off switching. Next possibility is using it for spdt like the well known two switches landing light. When you need more switches the dpdt switches are required.

o--+----+ o----+----+----o +--o--__ | +-o--__ | | __--o--+ hot | o--)--+ o--+-)--+-)----o | --+ | | | | | | | .-. | | | | | | | +--( X )--- | o--+ | o--+ | | +---o | '-' neutral +--o--__ +---o--__ | | __--o---+ o-----+ o----+ +-----o

Three switch landing light using dpdt switches. The right and left switches are wired for spdt.

o-----+ o-----+ +--o--__ | +-o--__ | hot o--+ o--+--)--+ o--+--)-------o .-. neutral --o--__ | | | | __--o--( X )--- o--+ o--+ | o--+ +-------o '-' spdt +--o--__ +----o--__ | spdt o-----+ o-----+ dpdt dpdt

Four switch landing light. You can repeat the dpdt- or crosswitch as often as you need.

created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta

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petrus bitbyter

Reply to
petrus bitbyter

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@bt.com

Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same. Right now, they are a moving target as the designs of their electronics packages becomes more sophisticated and purpose-driven.

Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in a wide variety of applications.

True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1.

They are both primarily made up of glass, which is recylcliable.

This is a very flawed argument. Industry is going to get the power they need. They don't buy power for the fun of it.

Mixed bag.

In the summer, less heat means less need for air conditioning. In the winter, less heat from electricity for lighting may have to be offset to keep the rooms at the same temperature, but space heating often comes from more efficient sources. Electricity generation has about 70% waste back at the generating plant, plus significant losses due to transmission and distribution. Natural gas doesn't have the 70% conversion cost, but it does have some losses in transmission and distribution.

Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating generally comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above.

Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room, which is true in maybe

90% of the US in the summer.
Reply to
Arny Krueger

"Arny Krueger"

** No-one said that.

Total red herring anyhow.

** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard to find.
** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often.

** Nice " selecting the evidence " fallacy.
** More example selecting.

Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.

** Domestic lighting is only used at night, when a little extra heat is mostly welcome.

Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing bulbs to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2 production.

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use compulsory.

There are serious hazards risks in so doing - particularly home fires which are notoriously fatal.

Bad idea, dreamt up by ego tripping, greenie fuckwits.

........ Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

text -

Nope...

A simple 4-way switch system.

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No relays involved, and any single switch can turn On/Off irrespective of the others (at any one time).

Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA

Reply to
pfjw

CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip, chip, chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material), plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of metal in it.

Reply to
Karl Uppiano

"Karl Uppiano"

** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

The EU is about to completely ban the import and export of mercury using the RoHS legislation, excepting only certain approved uses - like bloody billions of CFLs in private homes !!

Insane.

........ Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

More like 4mg.

Philips is now using 2mg IIRC.

Graham

Reply to
Eeyore

** Absolute bollocks.

** Laughable.

...... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

The new Extreme Low Mercury designated products can be recognised by a logo on the packaging and product. These include the MASTER PL-L , PL-TOP and PL-C ranges which have been reduced to 1.4mg and the MASTER CFL-I ranges which are all lower than 2 mg whereas the lighting industry benchmark is between 2.4mg

-8mg.

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Graham

Reply to
Eeyore

"Eeysore Lying Half Wit" "

** Got * ABSOLUTELY NOTHING * to do with what is in the vast majority of CFLs in use now and on sale now.

Go f*ck yourself -

you ASININE pommy CUNT !!

........ Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

As a fraction of the actual voting public? Or do you mean how many did it look like on TV (vs. the actual numbers.) We have demonstrations all the time over here in the Washington DC "Mall" where you can get a couple hundred people together and if you are on the right side of the issue (that is the "left side"), the "news" purveyors will shoot and edit it to look like thousands (or even hundreds of thousands if it is a slow news day.)

Reply to
Richard Crowley

Phil:

Rather than pissing all over yourself in half-witted attempts to piss on others, just do the math, all of it.

The basic premise is "Life-time Costs". I will not use your "most common 60W incandescent" as my basis, but rather the 100W lamp as it lends itself to round numbers. Otherwise things are much the same.

Assumptions:

a) there are two sorts of compact fluorescent lamps. Ballast-in and Separate-Ballast, commonly known as CFL and PL respectively. Personally, I prefer PL-types as one replaces only the lamp, not the electronics. But for the sake of Phil's very limited understanding, I will confine the argument to good-quality CFL-types.

b) I will ignore the Chinese-Junque mass-market crap just as I avoid those same sources for incandescent lamps.

c) I will point to where I obtain my lamps, and the cost, and the published service-life, mean-average lumens and so forth. My source will, without question, accept and replace without cost any lamp that fails within the specified lifetime. It is as convenient to me as any other souce by accident of geography, but even accepting shipping costs, the equation hardly changes. I am also ignoring quantity- discounts as they apply equally to any lamp purchased of whatever nature.

d) The cost of electricity from PECO at present at our location, RS-1 rate is ~$0.145/kwh, delivered. That is 1000 wats for one hour.

e) Tungsten-filament lamps are about 6% efficient (and that is being generous as they age), so in 100 watts, 6 are emitted as visible light, 94 as heat.

f) CLF/PL lamps are ~23% - ~26% efficient depending on ballast losses. We will use 23% as it most favors Phil. So, that means a 28 watt CFL will give as much visible light as a 100 watt tungsten-filament lamp.

g) We will ignore halogen lamps for any number of reasons, mostly because excepting miniature LV reading-type lamps, they are not commonly used for general lighting.

Here we go:

We purchase, in our house, either this:

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or the "75-watt" version thereof. The specifications are given for fair comparison to:

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So. It will take sixteen (16) 100-watt lamps to equal one (1) CLF lamp.

First-Cost CFL: 18.59 First Cost Inc.: 0.56 x 16 = $8.96

First-Cost of CFL is 2.075 x the cost of Inc.

12000 x 100/1000 x $0.145 = $174 This is the operational cost for 12000 hours of 100-watt incandescent lighting.

12000 x 28/1000 x 0.145 = $48.72 This is the cost of 12000 hours of

28-watt CFL lighting.

174 + 8.96 = $182.96 This is the Cost to purchase and operate Incancescent lighting for 12000 hours.

48.72 + 16.59 = 65.31 This is the Cost to purchase and operate CFL lighting for 12000 hours.

Purchase/operation: Incandescent lighting is 2.8 X more expensive than CFL lighting.

Transport & disposal (life-cycle, costs, remember):

CLF Lamp = 4.8 ounces

16 100W incandescent lamps = 12.8 ounces.

Or, 2.67 x the impact on landfill by weight notwithstanding volume which is much greater for incandescent lamps.

Mercury:

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Here in the US, most mercury comes from the burning of coal. It is being controlled, but it does remain the major source. Hence, burning electricity from coal releases mercury, irrespective of whether it is burnt in Incandescent or CLF lamps. Less, of course with CFL lamps. But the brute-fact-of-the-matter is that far more comes from the coal than from the lamp if high-quality lamps are used. In Australia, the coal may be slightly less in its mercury content than the international average, but not 0.

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Bottom line.... more mercury is released from burning 1,200,000 watts of power than exists in a GE 28-watt CFL.

Aside: Our township accepts fluorescent lamps of all types for recycling at proper facilities, and at no "additional" cost to us. Our taxes are enough!

So, Phil, were you to stop fulminating (pun intended) and start thinking, you might actually learn something. I understand this is a foreign concept to you...

Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA

Reply to
pfjw

The conservative estimate (by the police) was 750,000 - see

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Now that's a big protest march in a country this size, by anyone's definition. Over a million people signed the anti road pricing petition that I mentioned. Again, that is a very substantial piece of the motoring public. The day after that petition closed, the minister for transport, or whatever he was, publicly declared that the petition was basically nonsense, because the motoring public did not know what was good for them, and what was the 'right' thing to do, so they were going to go ahead with the pilot schemes, regardless. Despite France and The Netherlands ( Holland ) returning a resounding "No" vote to the establishing of a Europe-wide 'constitution', which would seriously erode yet further, a country's right to govern itself, and set its own laws and taxes, and which vote should have spelt an end to further pressure on the member states, it is now being reintroduced by the back door, in such a way that it will be very hard to knock on the head again.

And to Mr T, the answer to whether we had more democracy under Mrs Thatcher, from those of us who can remember her conservative government, the answer has to be yes. At least I didn't feel like they were trying to run my entire life for me, as this lot do ...

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

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