Re: Devices to fool the Power Meter

> ----------------------- >> >> > >> > It simply lowers you RMS current draw. >> >> Can you explain I^2 R for me ? >> > > > ** That must seem like a very clever Q to you. > > But I am not biting.

Just sit back and take some notes then. It sounds like you're forgetting some stuff.

Reply to
Cydrome Leader
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If installed correctly it can help. You have to install it by the load.

Same concept as switchable power factgor correction banks installed at a factory. It has to be near the load to reduce the distace you're pulling empty current, lowering line voltage and regulation and wasting a bit of power.

Reply to
Cydrome Leader

The major reason PF correction capacitors are installed is to avoid the large 'penalty' charged by utilities for VAR 'use' when the utility meters for kVARh. That correction can be done by putting PF correction caps at the service. This is cheaper to install than at motors.

It may or may not be cost effective to put correction at some subpanels or motor control centers. That has some added, but smaller, advantages.

And it may or may not be cost effective to put correction at motors. Considerations include motor size percent of time motor runs circuit length motor use - very-short off time, plugging, jogging

Industrial correction could be split between at some motors and at the service.

It is not cost effective to put all correction at motors. I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.

Reply to
bud--

Agreed. One larger switchable bank at a plant will be cheaper and cover more possibilities than trying to connect capacitor banks at all motors.

Yup. The largest motor I can think of in a house might be the compressor in a split airconditioning system. Those always have dedicated runs of power so they're more like an industrial schenario where wiring is run as needed, dedicated and properly sized to the intended load in the first place.

Reply to
Cydrome Leader

We had a mini-mill in the north side of Chicago until recently. They'd do the melts at night for 1) better electric prices and 2) it was the only time of day their capacity needs could be met, even in an otherwise industrial area. I never saw the electric meters, but the powerlines feeding the complex had lots of instrument transfomers installed, way more than you'd usually see. Even after the building were completely demolished there was a mountain of power factor capacitor piled up in the gated off, otherwise vacant lot.

Let's hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity per month with complex devices.

Reply to
Cydrome Leader

Sounds like those generators. For about a million bucks they will feed your house electricity for about seven years. Divide it up, do you pay $11K a month for electricity ?

If they got a device for like two grand that saves you two bucks a month it takes years for it to be cost effective. And that is if it works. Power companies put millions to make sure it doesn't.

What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old mechanical meter because of what is known as mass. With totally electronic ones you have to pull the juice so fast it clips, like an audio amp.

Still, electricity is relatively cheap. Try making your own. Get a Generac, now look at its fuel consumption and you will see it costs a hell of alot more.

So my question just became - Why bother ?

Reply to
Jeff Urban

Not obvious to me it would fool a mechanical meter. The current pulse would put a mechanical impulse into the disc and it would likely move on the impulse for longer than the pulse.

Back in the good old days the physics lab had a "ballistic galvanometer". It had a mirror instead of a pointer, and reflected a light beam on a scale. You could put a current pulse into the meter and it would continue to swing for long after the pulse.

The utility would be very displeased by the pulse scheme because they have to supply the pulse, which is much higher than the average power use.

Reply to
bud--

Not following how pulses will not affect a mechanical meter. Magnemotive forces don't go away just because you're quick.

Clipping a digital meter sounds more possibly, unless your spikes confused them and they over charge you.

I had my electric bills go down after the old spinning meter was smashed by a meteor, and the company installed a digital meter. I suspect the drag magnets fade over time and the meters speed up.

Was just asking for a friend. I don't actually care much about my electric bill. If I want lights on, or to plug something in, I'm just going to do it. I won't be falling down the stairs because the lights were on a motion detector. I really hate stuff like that.

Reply to
Cydrome Leader

Because of inertia. The current moves a wheel in there if you hit it fast e nough it cannot accelerate fast enough. It is up to you to store the energy though, how you gonna do that ? I know of no battery that can take a 500 a mp charge for a few milliseconds and then deliver it out as needed. Then de pending on what kind of panel you got you might have to get ahead of the ma in breaker to even do that. Then you might blow their fuses outside.

It is not easy to steal power, in fact any effective means is usually more trouble than it's worth.

Reply to
Jeff Urban

Ask Marge Schott. She was in trouble after CG&E discovered the current transformers had been shunted at Riverfront Stadium.

Reply to
Michael Terrell

I'm sure it worked well. Until she got caught. I'm pretty sure that's when the "more trouble than it's worth" kicked in.

--
"I am a river to my people." 
Jeff-1.0 
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Reply to
Fox's Mercantile

Apparently it was done just before the stadium was opened. She was fined for all the stolen power, plus interest by the utility.

Reply to
Michael Terrell

It can always accelerate fast enough. A localised short (microseconds or so) sharp pulse just deforms the metal briefly, storing the energy in spring action. As long as the metal is elastic, that energy will spread to a uniform acceleration.

When you put a ceramic cup down on a stone benchtop, it comes to rest in the distance and time for which the surfaces are *deformed*. Even when they're heavy, dense and brittle. That's true of any impact. Same deal with an inertial pulse delivered by electromagnetism.

CH

Reply to
Clifford Heath

power meters don't measure accelaration. They measure the number of times the aluminum disc turns. Forces applied to the disc make it spin. If they are enough to overcome the drag of turning, it will move.

agreed.

Reply to
Cydrome Leader

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