I apoligize for the OT post, but I guess that many people at sci.electronics.repair work not only on electronic things but mechanical things as well. The connection to sci.environment should be evident.
The question is this: is there a Usenet group at which automotive emission controls are discussed? I am not interested in removing them, nor do I wish to engage in a rant on the politics of emission controls. Rather, I am pulling my hair out trying to get my car to pass the emissions test. I've put in hour after hour, and.... Well, you get the point.
Surely there is a group devoted to this. Thanks for the help.
I had a similar problem, and here's how I got around it.
First let me explain why I didnt feel bad about this.
I had TWO cars of the same year, same model. One measured at 2% of allowable emissions (that's the one I took good care of since it was a pup).
The second car I bought used, and had been a bit misused, and had carbon deposits on the valves-- it ran at 114% of allowable limits.
The dang testing folks didnt see my logic-- on an average, my cars were running at 60% of limits. They also would not give me a waiver, as they only gave waivers if the repair costs exceeded $300 IF the problem had to do with "rings". Silly rules. Even mentioning that I drove the car 8 miles a day, 1600 miles a year, as a commuter, thereby putting out less than 15% of typical emissions, didnt faze them.
One way would be to run the gas tank almost dry, then put in a gallon or so of 100% isopropyl alcohol (gas line "heet", or dryer). Then many cars will pass emissions tests.
The way I actually did it was have my mechanic adjust the timing until it passed emissions (but got poor gas milage), ran it thru the testing agency, then turned the timing back to the economy setting.
Not exactly legal, but can help you around the beuracratic hassles.
I read a couple of automotive groups that may be of interest to you - but I'm not sure how much respect you'd garner on the subject interesting you... just a heads-up.
"Beloved Leader" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
Check the specific newsgroup for your brand of car. (which you didn't mention) alt.autos.xxxxx
Alt.autos.honda is great for Honda/Acura. I hear the Toyota NG is good,too. You would be surprised at the knowledge you can find on those newsgroups. Quirky problems turn out to be common,and someone likely has a fix for it.
If your car is 1994 or later,the electronics stores codes relating to your engine problems,Autozone will read the codes for you at no charge,I've heard.
When in doubt, read the manual. If the car is newer than 1996, get the On Board Diagnostics tests done. Fix the sensors, etc. Rather simple, really. But not the thing a back yard mechanic (like me) can do for cheap....
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Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
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My code scanner finds no problems with sensors, but the GM CCC system in use is less robust than OBD II. For example, there's no code set for vacuum leaks. I find them with a vacuum gauge and by examination of the hoses.
Why not? Find what's wrong; fix it. Same as always. Parts just have different shapes - and higher prices - now.
rec.autos.tech seems to be the group for me. Now I have to write up the lengthy description of the problems.
Oldsmobile. There's a group, but it's not too active. The same engine, a "Y" code 307 V8, was used in some Cadillacs too.
There's an Autozone near me. I have seen them go out to the parking lot to do just that for a customer. My car, an '89, has the CCC system, not OBD II.
Do a search on your model of car. There will almost certainly be a newsgroup devoted to at least the make. There are also Yahoo type mail lists devoted to particular models, and yours may be one if it has a sufficient enthusiast following.
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*Life is hard; then you nap
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Carburetor or fuel injection? My old car had a carburetor and a mechanic showed me how to pull one tube off it so it would pass every time (bled air into the mixture). I'd just pull the tube, run it through, get a pass, stick the tube back on and be good for another year.
IMO most all of the older cars going through are rigged to pass. My newer car has fuel injection so no problem now.
Carburetor. The "Y" code 307 V8 was just about the last of the carbureted engines in automobiles. It may have been the cleanest carbureted gasoline automotive engine of all time too. GM got one more year out of it, using it in 1990-model cars too. In the 1991-model cars, GM replaced it with the injected Chevy-based 305.
I'm squeamish about the idea of pulling things off to get through the test. I know, you do what you have to do, but that sounds as if it would introduce a vacuum leak.
Hydrocarbons. The last test, yesterday, I missed by 4 ppm at 15mph. The limit is 55 ppm, and I came in at 59 ppm. Everything else passed. CO % and NO ppm are great.
I've been writing a text file that I will post at rec.autos.tech or an Oldsmobile group. So far, I'm only up to the end of August. I have taken the test five times. I started on August 16.
Hydrocarbons is the tough (and sometimes expensive) failure to get rid of. I don't remember what you have... if you have a carb with adjustable fuel mixture screws you could try leaning the fuel mixture a little bit. Also try to tighten ALL the screws on the carb where ever they might be so that vacuum isn't pulling gas from where it isn't supposed to into the engine.
Check your fuel pressure at the inlet of the carb, if it is more than
6psi it could be pushing gas through cracks into the engine. If you have fuel injection check the pressure too, too much will push gas past seals.
If you have fuel injection you might have an injector that is leaking into the intake manifold. It could be valve seals leaking oil into the combustion chamber, a stuck ring on one of the pistons, or a small head gasket leak. Really, its hard to say what is doing it.
Any GM web site or news group should do since the fuel/emissions systems are the same for all of them. Chevroletforums.com is one. Try to find a GM factory manual or Mitchell manual since they're much better than Haynes and Chilton's, especially for fuel/emission diagnosis. High HC with low CO and NOx points to an ignition problem, but post all the test results since you may actually have high CO or NOx even if they're far below legal limits. High CO is a fuel or valve problem, but high NOx can be from a vacuum leak or very lean mixture, which can also make HC high. Your state should have an emissions lab that can answer technical questions or even test the vehicle more extensively than the typical garage or emissions station can. The lab here once pinpointed a high HC problem to worn distributor bearings, something few garages would have caught.
Here's a table I found somewhere. It's more legible with a nonproportional font, like Courier:
Typical State Automobile Emissions Idle Test Limits and Performance of Vehicles in Good Working Order
Model Year Typical State Limits Normal Vehicle Emissions
CO HC CO HC ------------------------------------------------------------------
When you say great - are they better than maker's spec? High HC low CO suggest a weak mixture, so possibly an air leak in the induction system or engine breathers?
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*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Your approach to fixing the problems reminds me of similar problems I had a while back. Older carbs with plastic floats tend to have problems as they age due to the float slowly soaking up gasoline and becoming too heavy, thus setting the float height will lead to too much gas in the float bowl. I fought with a Carter carb on a '79 GM for years, due to the power valve needle jet mechanism corroding and thus sticking open. Those GM inlet air heaters can fail, thus preventing the carb temperature from reaching the proper level, a symptom being that it's extra hard to start in colder weather. Platinum plugs are great, as well as new plug wires. When you go in for inspection, be sure the car is completely warmed to normal operating temperature and don't leave it parked before the test, which will cool it down. On another vehicle, I finally bit the bullet and replaced the catalytic converter, which then passed.
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Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
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You might have carbon buildup on the intake valves. No simple way to fix that. On expensive BMW's they sandblast the stuff off ( not with sand, with walnut shells ). But for some unfathomable reason they want $600 for that treatment.
Since you're not too far off, have you tried an "Italian Tuneup"? Find a reason to take the highway, driving as fast as reasonable for 20 to
October 4, 11:17 a.m. Idle 538-540 rpm according to the test machine's display. (Should be
550) HC, ppm: 15 mph: limit 55; actual 59 (fail) HC, ppm, 25 mph: limit 100; actual 79 (pass)
CO, %, 15 mph: limit 0.22; actual 0.01 (pass) CO, %, 25 mph: limit 0.32; actual 0.04 (pass)
NO, ppm, 15 mph; limit 720; actual 136 (pass) NO, ppm, 25 mph; limit 700; actual 188 (pass) Overall test results: fail.
The only manual I have for the car is a Haynes manual, the one for full-size GMs. There is a Haynes emissions manual, I think, but I don't have it. I am within two miles of a Cadillac dealer and within four miles of a community college with an automotive program. The community college has a library of factory manuals and loads of CDs too. I'll be able to pick a lot of brains if need be, but I want to do as much of my own homework as I can first. Virginia's DEQ office is a local call.
I did turn down the idle from its initial ~800 rpm to the specified
550. At this rpm, the engine sometimes stalls. I'll probably have to turn it back up after I've passed the test.
An old message at rec.autos.tech says to look at the air injection system. I'll have to find it again, print it out, and think about it.
As for the catalytic converter, the Cadillac tech said that if that were bad, all the readings would be haywire. It's a three-way converter, so it wouldn't be cheap. At least it would be an easy fix, as it is readily accessible.
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