Bose Wave Radio Revisited ...

William:

With respect, this is where you go off the rails and wind up a steaming wreck at the bottom of the ravine.

Politicians make a fine art of avoiding truth. It is their stock-in- trade, and the better they are at it, the more successful they will be at politics. Not only is an honest politican an oxymoron, but one who will neither succeed in politics nor in bringing home the bacon - er, pork for their constituents.

Boss Tweed of Tammanny Hall defined an honest politician as: one who once bought, stays bought. I would take a lying weasel (sex) such as Clinton over a lying weasel (criminal behavior) such as Nixon or a post turtle such as G.W.Bush (WMD) every time. Clinton got caught. So what? Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, innumerable others did not. Lying weasels all of them. That is the political world. The art of making sausage is one that should not be too closely examined. What is far more important is to educate that same great unwashed to think for themselves. Don't tell them what is "right" or "wrong", but give them the tools to discern the difference. Somewhat like what is expressed in that old adage: Give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish...

I grew up on Rikki-tikki-tavi: Run and find out. Sure one gets burnt every so often. But one learns a lot.

Business has a single goal: Make Money. That is required for survival and survival of businesses of any stripe is what provides jobs and supports the economy and all that sort of stuff. "Profit" is the difference between what something is worth (labor, material, service and so forth) and what is charged or paid for it. If a laborer were paid what he was worth, the company that paid him would fail in short order. If goods and services cost only what they were worth, they and their sources would fail in equally short order. It happens all the time, every day. Bose is particularly good at surviving in a world where audio in general and US-based audio in particular is severely threatened by Pacific Rim amalgamation. Bose supports a pretty large infrastructure in the US - something not to be sneezed at after all. That they pander to the ignorant who also happen to have a few more bucks than they need at the moment is just fine. Fleecing suckers is an American Tradition that started with Erikson and continues to this day, and will continue to the end of time.

Last note on this subject: Jimmy Carter was an honest man... and a near-absolute failure as a President and politican.

Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA

And I repair the stuff all of the time, so why is my opinion (strange that you now apparently have one rather than an absolute conviction based on your perceived absolute truth) any less valid or "informed" than yours - or indeed, Peter's ? Do you honestly believe, given the exchanges that we have had, and given the continuous help and advice that I provide to try assist repair-question posters on here, that I am a "Don't give a damn" person ? In fact, what do you actually know of my life at all to detest ? I find that remark deeply offensive.

And Peter's views *are* more sensible (to normal people) than yours, because they are open, whilst yours are 'reasoned' within a very tight constraint as to what you consider to be fully factual truth. Peter also recognises what an "opinion" is, but this seems to be a concept which escapes you.

Anyway, once again, I am allowing myself to be dragged down into another of your whirpool arguments, which wasn't the intention of re-opening the thread. Suffice to say that I am unable to accept your views as reasoned and presented. If you want to do something about Bose being liars and deceivers of the public, then go ahead and do as I suggested previously. If not, then your strength of feeling and conviction on the subject has no firm basis, and as such, anything that you say on the matter, cannot be taken as valid input.

Arfa

The recent brouhaha about him plagiarizing maps for his book kinda lends some doubt to any claim to honesty he might have had.

Bose: Always good for a flame-war, eh?

It's not that the quality is so bad, just overpriced like crazy. And I wouldn't say they're accurate reproducers of music, just a valid "niche" product. I do despise their latest Wave models with the lack of ANY function buttons, everything on a crappy credit-card remote...

Mark Z.

Hi Mark

I don't disagree with most of what you say. They are not particularly good value for money, although they are well built, generally pretty reliable, and well backed up service-wise, which are all things that have to be factored into the equation, when deciding what exactly represents 'value'. As far as them being accurate reproducers of music, I think it depends to some extent as to what genre of music you are trying to reproduce, and what you are trying to compare them to. I happen to think that they do a pretty fair job on mainstream 'popular' music, compared to other items of similar size and functionality, and do a creditable job of holding their own against bigger systems from other manufacturers, but I consider it silly to start saying, like some on here do, that they don't compare to multi-thousand dollar systems with speakers that cost more than a small car, just because Bose imply in their advertising that they can rival big(ger) systems. I don't suppose that they were considering that anybody would be foolish enough to make such unrealistic comparisons, either ...

As you say, it fills a niche market for people with enough money to spend, by their own free choice, on a product that they feel fills their needs, or indeed lifestyle choices. As I said before, I don't happen to think that a Ferrari is very good at getting you from A to B in safety and comfort, but there are people who own them as a main car, and are very *happy* with the fact that they own an overpriced 'name'. It's no different from owning a Bose.

As far as a lack of controls on the actual unit goes, I think that is more of a 'lifestyle' thing than anything else. I mean, be honest, when was the last time that you saw anything more than a master on / off button on a TV set, or anything other than the most basic controls, if any, on a DVD player or recorder. Even a lot of AV amplifiers have had little other than a master volume control on them for some time now. I do take your point though. It reminds me of that brilliantly funny Emo standup (he was actually sitting down as I recall) routine where he is showing his new pocket TV to the audience. He then holds it at arms length, so that he can demonstrate the remote control that it comes with... Priceless !

Anyway, I'm sure that you, as indeed most of the others on here, understand my position on all of this. As you say, mention of Bose is always good for a 'flame-y' thread, but it always seems to be the same couple of people that make it so, and I was just interested in why it should be. I say again, I have no particular affiliation to Bose, and neither particularly like nor dislike their products. They perform better than some, not as well as others. As a service engineer, I find them among the best for build quality, servicability, quality of service information, and factory service backup. I don't believe that as a company they are out and out liars to the public, but I will accept that their advertising material and pitch blurb is - how shall we say - 'rosy' ? The fact that they are protective of their products, and sell through main dealers or own shops, and have a particular way that they like their systems presented and marketed, is not lying by preventing comparison. It is just effective sales strategy. In much the same way, you will have a hard time, for instance, trying to compare a Ferrari to a Lambo at the same garage.

And please, William, this is a reply to Mark's points, and doesn't require another endless list of 'proofs' to show me how, if I think about it some more, I am wrong in everything that I say.

Arfa

The same happens on the Pro.Live-sound group where general opinion amongs't pro's is that Bose gear 'sucks' Every now and then some newcomer will ask a question about Bose speakers and ignites a flamefest of epic proportions. Usually it`s because someone spent his hard earned cash on Bose thinking he bought 'the best' and finds it doesn't do what he expected it to do.

I don't have an opinion on the Wave radio btw.

Ron(UK)

That's probably not a tenable view. The single-piece CSW system I mentioned would probably beat the Wave, but not having heard them together, I'm not sure. The CSW certainly has the advantage of being larger and having a separate, separately driven woofer.

As a classical listener, I'm highly critical of sound quality. I assume serious jazz listeners would be comparably critical.

Bose doesn't imply -- they say it outright. Which is one of my gripes.

This is also one of the points of contention. Granted, Bose products are squarely aimed at people who _don't_ want to get involved in choosing and setting up a component system. There's nothing wrong with this. But Bose's advertising and dealer policies are aimed at making sure that such a comparison never occurs.

It's worth noting that Bang & Olufsen makes products aimed at much the same market as Bose. I haven't recently looked at their prices to see how they compare with separate components. But I've never heard anyone accuse B&O products of being overpriced mediocrities. (Pricey, perhaps...)

Might I ask a blunt question? If you ran a retail store, would you sell indifferent, overpriced products just because they had a good profit margin and customers were presold on them? I wouldn't, and I don't think you would, either.

One of the issues here is whether one should attempt to force a company to stop lying about a product to customers who don't really _care_ they're being lied to.

As to whether the purchase of a Bose product is a free choice... If people were less gullible, there would be less dishonest advertising.

I will call Cambridge SoundWorks Monday and complain about their stooping to Bose's level. (It's wrong to gripe about one firm while ignoring the qualitatively identical behavior of another.) Indeed, if CSW were _honest_ about the quality of their product, they could turn it to their marketing advantage, by implicitly calling Bose a liar.

It's nice for people who are afraid of knobs and switches. But much electronic equipment -- including high-end audiophile stuff -- has few front-panel controls. There are too many features and options for dedicated controls -- not to mention the high cost of implementing them.

I understand your position very well! I just vehemently disagree with it.

It all depends on how you define lying. Strictly speaking, a lie is a conscious untruth. But (to me), ignorance of whether what you say is correct is no excuse.

The lies started with the 2201. Dr. Bose was not a particularly perceptive listener. He did not do his homework and came to the wrong conclusions.

This is a complex issue that can't easily be covered in a few paragraphs, but I'll try.

Businesses have to make money to stay in business. Not surprisingly, they want to make the most money with the least effort. If a manufacturer offers you a profitable product that's more or less pre-sold to the customer, that few other stores carry so you won't be under much pressure to discount it, you're likely to want to carry it.

But you have to dance with the Devil. In exchange for all these advantages, you're often forced to "push" the product on an unwilling customer, or demo it in ways that don't allow the customer to make a fair comparison.

I once worked for a store that sold Audio Research and Magnepan. In exchange for an exclusive franchise in the Philadelphia area, we were pretty much obliged to shove these products down the customers' throats. I had no problem "encouraging" the purchase of ARC products, as they were very good, but I did not like Magneplanars (nor the Protestant fundamentalists who manufactured them). I wanted to help customers find what they liked, not talk them into buying something they weren't altogether enthusiastic about.

A sale is a social transaction. One of the reasons a customer chooses to buy an expensive audio system is that they trust the salesperson. I would prefer to tell the customer how I honestly feel about a product * than tell them what I need to make my commission.

When I joined Tau Beta Pi, the American engineering fraternity, I promised that "my word would be the same to buyer and seller". I see nothing wrong with that.

• Several customers complimented me to my boss about my honesty.

But one doesn't judge autos in the same way one judges sound reproduction.

It's not your facts as much as it is your attitude.

Oh puleeeese ....

Arfa

You know what ? You wanna question my attitude. Well here's some for you to get your teeth into. For the most part, I'm a pretty easy going guy - up to a point. I will have a discussion with sensible real world people, who hold sensible real world opinions, for as long as they want to keep talking. That's sensible people, not you. I have come across your type, who are endlessly reasonable, and never get mad, and put across that same bland superiority thing, many times in my long and varied career, and the end result is always the same. Well let me tell you where I'm at with you now. The 'point' has been reached. If you were actually here in front of me now, I would be making an arse of myself by jumping up and down, red in the face, screaming SHUT UP - SHUT UP - SHUT THE F*** UP !!!!!!!!!! at you, and you, I'm sure, would be standing there with that po-faced "poor old thing" indulgent half-smile on your face, thinking how bloody superior you are.

If that makes you superior, which I'm sure you'll rush now to deny, then sobeit. I'm just a poor old norm, and you're a god.

So read this, and understand it well. I have no further interest in you, or anything you have to say, most of which I consider to be senseless self-absorbed crap anyway. If you are prepared to phone Cambridge SW to tell them not to stoop to Bose's level, have the bollocks to phone Bose, and tell them to stop lying. No ? I didn't think so. Empty vessels make the most noise, as they say.

Arfa

Mr. Daily, I had had my final say and had stopped arguing this issue until you brought it up again a few days ago.

I learned -- not that many years ago -- on UseNet -- that there's no point in screaming or yelling at people. And believe me, I did a lot in my day. It finally got through my thick skull that, regardless of whether I was right or wrong, most other people aren't interested in the truth -- that is, they lack the ability to step back and self-criticize.

I know exactly the kind of "passive-agressive" person you're talking about. I'm not that sort of person.

You need to start thinking about why you get so twisted out of line when people don't agree with you -- and worse, why you consider your points of view necessarily correct, and those of people who disagree necessarily wrong.

By the way, I _will_ call Bose. I'll report back on what I find. (Note that it's highly unlikely I'll be able to get to anyone high-up in marketing at Bose. The odds are better at CSW.)

Arfa is hardly a gentleman. He has no understanding of how to intelligently argue, and he seems to be devoid of any self-critical sense. All he can is spout and spume when people disagree with him. That's hardly courteous or smart.

I used to think I was smarter than anybody else, and gradually learned I sure as hell _wasn't_. Then I started meeting people in UseNet, and discovered something. I'm not smart at all -- but most people are insufferably stupid.

Why should I STFU (which I had, until you reposted), when I'm probably right?

About two years ago, someone in rec.audio.pro asked where in the A to D conversion process the signal actually went from analog to digital.

I responded that it occurred at the point at which the samples were quantized.

I was immediately barraged with invective. I was an idiot, I didn't know what I was talking about, the data had to actually be converted to binary numbers, etc, etc, etc.

I pointed out that numbers weren't necessary. Once the data had been quantized -- that is, reduced to a finite, enumerable set of data (rather than an infinite, continuously varying set) -- it was digital. "Numbers" weren't necessary.

The screaming was repeated. Not one person (that I recall) agreed.

Yet what I said was correct. Anyone with a basic understanding of how information is represented would immediately see that "digital = quantization", not "digital = numbers". Once data are quantized, their continuous representation is lost.

It's not whether data _are_ represented as numbers, but whether they _can be_ represented as numbers that determines whether data are digital. One can have digital PAM and PWM data systems in which there are no "numbers" -- the pulse amplitude or pulse width is quantized.

If educated technical people cannot grasp such a simple concept, am I entitled to call them "insufferably stupid"? You decide.

I felt rather like God telling Abraham he would spare Sodom if 10 righteous people "be found there". If one person had responded "Oh, yes. I see what you're getting at. That makes perfect sense.", I wouldn't have been too upset. But not one person "got it".

Mr. Daily, if you wish to continue reacting violently when people express points of view different from yours, insisting that disagreements are due to the other fellow's foolishness, bad values, or inability to reason, be my guest. Is that how you discuss serious matters with other people?

As far as the never-ending Bose arguments go... Yes, businesses often misrepresent their products, and sometimes lie outright. That doesn't make it right, nor does it mean we should keep our mouths shut.

Nor does it mean that we can't say to someone "Did you know that, for what you spent for that Bose Wave radio, you could have had much better sound?" There are polite ways to criticize people, another thing it took me a long time to learn. (The trick is to ask questions, rather than confronting people directly.)

Wow, you've just described yourself to a T.

You still think that way.

I see no evidence that you've learned anything.

Nice autoflame LOL. I agree 100% that there are many people on Usenet that are much more stupid than you. Also there are those that are exponentially much smarter than you. Arfa is one of them.

In what ways? Be specific. His ability to understand other points of view, even those he doesn't agree with? The ability to be self-critical?

Human beings believe what they want to believe. And when someone invades their space and tells them they aren't right, they blow their stacks. As Arfa and his buddies do.