TV Opinion

I have a general question. Compared to traditional CRT type Displays, are not these more delicate / Fragile than the former? So say you have Kids, and they bounce around after School, and break / crack the Screen on a plasma /LCD set. Is it not time to shell out for a brand new set, since a replacement screen meets or exceeds the cost of a NEW? These days, if they break the Outer Shield or the Lenticular Screen on a Projection Set, theres usually a decent chance you can get a shield or a Lense if the sets not too old, and still stay within economics of repair, much less pay a disposal fee if the set is BER. Which also poses another question about disposal of these new types of TV you mention. Are there at least the same disposal problems facing us with these as well?

Plasma screens look very smart, but they are heavy, expensive and power hungry. Power consumption wouldn't be so much of a problem, for me as for some, because I'm one of these strange people that only switches the thing on when I want to watch something, and then I switch it off again. If you want to leave your TV on all the time, as many do, then several hundred watts burning all day will make a difference. They're also reputed to be "sticky", in that any static picture information (such as corner logos) that is displayed for any length of time can be burned permanently into the display.

No. Picture quality varies too much with viewing angle.

Not enough space in my living room for rear projection. Not really enough for the large screen CRT I have now, so I wouldn't want anything bigger. Your living room may be different, of course.

The shape of my living room would suit front projection quite well, so I'm considering this, but as above, yours will probably be different. Also, viewing would require at least subdued lighting, if not complete darkness, and you may not always want to close the curtains.

Same as above for any kind of back projection.

In other words, you need something that suits your living room, your viewing habits, your budget, your electricity bill, and your opinions about what aspect of TV watching is most important.

Rod.

Rear projection LED and DLP sets are smaller and slimmer .... much slimmer ... than any form of CRT set. You imply they are bigger than large screen CRT sets, and this is false.

Doug McDonald

Hi,

These displays are very fragile, and so are the CRT ones. It is just that the CRT sets are too heavy to move, or be knocked over easily. The flat screens are also very fragile. If your child throws a ball and hits the front screen, or knocks it over, you may be buying a new one the next day! It is true that the cost of a new display panel (when it fails), can easily exceed or be close to the purchase cost of a new set.

Normally the Plasma type should last about 30,000 hours, and the LCD type should last over 40,000 hours. Most LCD screens of this type have replaceable lamps inside (not user replaceable, but feasible to replace by a tech). The Plasma displays have no internal lamp. When the display unit goes bad, the unit will usually not be feasible to service.

If a still image is left up on a Plasma screen, it can burn in very quickly. An LCD screen will not burn in.

With all of these sets, there can be disposal problems, depending on where you live. In some places you have to pay a disposal cost when getting rid of old things such as a TV set.

When a display panel is rated at 30,000 hours, this is the time factor where the illumination output will be at 50% of its normal specification. If you use the set for 10 hours a day average (standard household usage with a family), the screen should last about 8 years. At 1/2 output, it will however look a bit dim, but is considered acceptable. Some people say to cut this in 1/2 again, and say it will last about 4 to 5 years maximum.

I personally found rear screen sets to look softer, and also they are more critical to the angle of viewing when close up to them. The new ones are improved a bit, but I was not impressed.

I also had some feedback about the LCD sets having some black shading problems which annoyed some people. This would be an uneven illumination in the blacks, or dark areas of the screen. The LCD sets also have some viewing angle problems as well. But, overall they are very sharp and perform well. In some cases the prices of the some of the Plasma screen models have dropped to be less than some of the LCD screens in the same size category. This was the opposite just a number of months ago.

--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG ========================================= WebPage

Electronics =========================================

Plasma screens do burn more power than the equivalent CRT type screen. But, the large rear screen CRT type sets are also very power hungry. They are also more sensitive to have picture burn in.

Some people I speak to, also have the opinion that nothing beats a conventional CRT type set. But, in about a year or two, these will no longer be available in the major type models. In about 5 years, CRT sets may not be available at all. But, from the consensus that I am seeing, makes it more difficult to choose a descent type of TV set without some compromise. The question now is, to find the best compromise.

--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG ========================================= WebPage

Electronics =========================================

Plasma screens look very smart, but they are heavy, expensive and power hungry. Power consumption wouldn't be so much of a problem, for me as for some, because I'm one of these strange people that only switches the thing on when I want to watch something, and then I switch it off again. If you want to leave your TV on all the time, as many do, then several hundred watts burning all day will make a difference. They're also reputed to be "sticky", in that any static picture information (such as corner logos) that is displayed for any length of time can be burned permanently into the display.

No. Picture quality varies too much with viewing angle.

Not enough space in my living room for rear projection. Not really enough for the large screen CRT I have now, so I wouldn't want anything bigger. Your living room may be different, of course.

The shape of my living room would suit front projection quite well, so I'm considering this, but as above, yours will probably be different. Also, viewing would require at least subdued lighting, if not complete darkness, and you may not always want to close the curtains.

Same as above for any kind of back projection.

In other words, you need something that suits your living room, your viewing habits, your budget, your electricity bill, and your opinions about what aspect of TV watching is most important.

Rod.

In weight and debt, the CRT sets are larger. The CRT type rear projector type set, which is going obsolete, is very large compared to the new LCD and DLP types. But, I personally found that these rear screen type sets have softer pictures. They do have their advantages.

--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG ========================================= WebPage

Electronics =========================================

Rear projection LED and DLP sets are smaller and slimmer .... much slimmer ... than any form of CRT set. You imply they are bigger than large screen CRT sets, and this is false.

Doug McDonald

may

This simply isn't so, unless you're looking SOLELY at the large-screen (over 40" diagonal) HDTV market. For TVs under 40", both HD and SD, CRT technology is expected to remain in the market for the foreseeable future. You did qualify your statement with "major type models," and if by that you mean the Japanese brands we've known over the past 20 years, there's some truth to this. However, CRT sets will still be available, and new makers (Korean, Taiwanese, and more and more from mainland China) will be coming to the U.S. market. In many cases, these are only "new" here.

In fact, I just returned from a display industry conference at which the TV market was forecast to still be at least 80% CRT-based by 2008. CRT PROJECTION sets will be declining in favor of other projection types (esp. the various microdisplay technologies), but direct view up to 40" diag. remains very much the domain of the CRT.

Bob M.

There are some TV sets still in use that are 20 or more years old, so unless some alternative technology not only offers an overwhelming advantage, but is also cheap enough to justify discarding existing technology that is still in working order, there will be CRTs in use for a very long time indeed.

Rod.

I'm just basing my opinion on what I've seen. Rear-projection displays must either have a large box to the rear, or be a floor-standing device with a 45deg mirror and the projector accommodated in the base. I can't think of any other practical arrangement that would enable the overall assembly to be described as anything other than "large", or "bulky", and I haven't seen any.

Rod.

The latest designs for rear-projection displays use much more sophisticated optical paths. InFocus recently introduced their first RPTV product, a 61" (diagonal) unit with a total depth under 7 inches! It's called the "ScreenPlay" - you can see it at the InFocus web site,

Bob M.

Very interesting, but only available in America, apparently, and it still looks like a box that is bigger than the screen. I'm sure it will appeal to many people, but for me, putting a front projector on a little shelf on the wall behind me and painting the opposite wall white looks like a more practical arrangement, and when the time comes it's probably what I will do.

rod.

The following is what we were told at our meetings with some of the manufacture reps that we deal with.

It is true that there will be a number of low cost models in the market using CRT technology to fill the market place. But, the major manufactures, such as Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, NEC, and Hitachi, plan to discontinue CRT Monitors and TV sets by this fall coming. Infact, we were told that many of these companies are no longer producing the tubes at this time, and when they run out, there will no longer be any assembly of these CRT sets. This includes all sizes from 3/4 inches (used in small viewfinders) up to the large 36 inch ones.

There are many news releases that ALL major CRT production will not exist in about 2 years time. The production runs will be stopping this year. We had notice from three major companies that they will not be doing any CRT manufacturing after this year. For the time being, there will be a few models of very high end broadcast and CAD type CRT monitors being made. These are going to be very expensive models, that will not be on sale at the consumer level.

There will be some low end CRT sets coming out of the Orient for a while. This is to fill the market place, and attempt to make some profits until there will no longer be any demand for CRT sets. You will see a number of models priced below $150 US for the 17 to 19 inch range. They will be taking on much of the old manufacturing equipment that the main manufactures will be doing away with.

I very strongly suggest you visit the links below.

Jerry G.

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"Bob Myers"  wrote in message
news:...
> "Jerry G."  wrote in message
> news:c51845$jb3$3@news.eusc.inter.net...
> > Some people I speak to, also have the opinion that nothing beats a
> > conventional CRT type set.  But, in about a year or two, these will no
> > longer be available in the major type models. In about 5 years, CRT sets
>  may
> > not be available at all.
> 
> This simply isn't so, unless you're looking SOLELY at the
> large-screen (over 40" diagonal) HDTV market.  For TVs
> under 40", both HD and SD, CRT technology is expected to
> remain in the market for the foreseeable future.  You did
> qualify your statement with "major type models," and if by
> that you mean the Japanese brands we've known over the
> past 20 years, there's some truth to this.  However, CRT
> sets will still be available, and new makers (Korean, Taiwanese,
> and more and more from mainland China) will be coming to
> the U.S. market.  In many cases, these are only "new" here.
> 
> In fact, I just returned from a display industry conference at
> which the TV market was forecast to still be at least 80%
> CRT-based by 2008.  CRT PROJECTION sets will be
> declining in favor of other projection types (esp. the various
> microdisplay technologies), but direct view up to 40" diag.
> remains very much the domain of the CRT.
> 
> Bob M.

I;m referring to LCD or DLP rear projection.

The mirror is nowhere near 45 degrees. A typical 50 inch set is 35 inches high, 55 inches wide, 15 inches deep, and weighs 83 pounds. There are some now that are only 13 inches deep.

They are of course "large", as 50 inches simply makes a large screen, and 60 or 65 inches is biggere still. But they are not what you would call "bulky" and most certainly don't sit on the floor.

There are now arrangements that get the thickness down to about 8 inches, but they are still very expensive.

Doug McDonald

The sets that are even more than about 10 years old will soon wear out, and also including the wearing out of their CRT's. Replacement tubes for any TV that is more than about 5 years old is hard to find these days. And, if you do find a replacement tube (CRT), it will generaly cost more than the equivelent new set to replace.

There are a few sets around that are 20 years and more, but it is impossible to have many of the parts, except for the standard generic type parts. You will not be able to find replacement CRT's, flyback transformers, tuner modules, or especialy any of the dedicated IC's.

In a number of years the broadcast system will be changing to digital only. Then it will go on to HDTV type broadcasting. A converter box will be required to see the pictures on the older sets. There will be a point where the older sets will soon die off, and then the users will be forced to replace them with newer sets, if they want to be able to watch TV.

(My mother would say... "Read A Book!").

Jerry G.

--
Roderick Stewart  wrote in message
news:...
> In article , Bob Myers wrote:
> > I just returned from a display industry conference at
> > which the TV market was forecast to still be at least 80%
> > CRT-based by 2008.
> 
> There are some TV sets still in use that are 20 or more years old, so 
> unless some alternative technology not only offers an overwhelming 
> advantage, but is also cheap enough to justify discarding existing 
> technology that is still in working order, there will be CRTs in use 
> for a very long time indeed.
> 
> Rod.

I just want to correct you on one point. LCD screens WILL have an effect identical to burn in. I have seen it lots of times on computer lcd screens that are used in business applications and left on the same image for hours on end. It is just much harder to cause this effect than typical phosphor burn in on an RPTV or Plasma screem.

In addition, I have seen a very odd failure mode of lcd screens that looks like spider web failure of the lcd panel. This was NOT due to impact on the screen. The cause of the failure was someone touching/cleaning the screen and having a large static discharge into the face of the lcd screen. Thus damaging many of the lcd cells that are right into the screen.

David

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I disagree 100%.. LCD's WILL burn, time tested with now on the 3rd set of Samsung LCD monitors (SyncMaster 400T ) used in our Master Control room. One is fed by a Miranda Kaliedo, the other a Evertz quad split. The Samsungs once burn not only burn but develop very ugly vertical squiggily lines up the LCD display. We still have the Samsungs, they keep replacing them under warranty. I'm not impressed at all with these LCD's..

That's the hype we were fed also, LCD's won't burn. Not true, the Samsungs and a bunch of 17 NEC flatscreen computer monitors that sit on graphics systems ( still stores ) day in and day out 24/7, they DO burn.

So in my life, there is no holy grail of "unburnable" monitors..

However, the equivalent new set won't exist if CRT sets are not being built.

Also, the goal of the makers is to get the entry level TV up around $1000, so there will continue to be lots of demand for the more reasonably priced sets. If the replacement sets (of new technology) cost this much, re-tubing old sets will begin to look a lot more attractive.

I predict some hard times for the folks who give up making affordable sets in the hope that consumers will be happy to pay several times as much for new technology.

As has been pointed out, the mandate is only for over the air broadcasting. Since many use cable and cable boxes, or satellite, they are familiar with external tuners and equipment. There is no mandated change for these services, and no reason for the satellite/cable channels to change for a long time.

I have removed sci.engr.television.advanced from the groups list, since this really isn't about the advanced television standards system (even though I brought it up), so is off-topic to the group.

Alan

Indeed. It's hardly worth repairing anything these days, only the biggest and most expensive items like cars and washing machines. Anything electronic will almost certainly be out of date and superceded by something better many years before it wears out. With nobody getting things repaired, there's no financial incentive for anybody to learn how to repair things, or even take an interest in how they work, so I wonder where we are going to find the next generation of engineers to design new stuff.

So did mine. :-)

Rod.

Yes - but as I said, you're just talking about those Japanese brands that most U.S. consumers have come to know over the past couple of decades. Japan isn't the largest producer of CRTs NOW, and has not been for quite some time - the bulk of CRTs are made in Korea, Taiwan, and (small but growing) mainland China, and these countries are also where the CRT monitors and TVs will continue to come from. (Japan hasn't dominated the PC monitor market, except for Sony's dominance of the very high end, for a good number of years, and this is now being repeated in television.) The problem is that, due to the poor economic conditions in Japan through much of the 1990s, these manufacturers could not afford to invest in maintaining and expanding their own in-house production capacity for CRTs (or, for that matter, other display technologies such as LCDs), and so the bulk of the worldwide capacity wound up in these other countries. And it's difficult for these companies to compete with those Korean/Taiwanese/etc.-based firms who either have a local supply of the basic components (or make them in-house) AND have their own domestic labor supply at a much lower cost than the Japanese.

(And yes, this HAS happened in non-CRT technologies as well; the biggest TFT-LCD panel makers in the world right now are Samsung (Korea), LG Philips (Korea), AU Optronics (Taiwan), Chungwha (Taiwan), etc.. With the notable exception of Sharp, there has been very little investment by the Japanese in domestic LCD production facilities, at least for the mainstream large-area technologies. They have, instead, been trading technology know-how for a share in the capacity of these other makers.)

Right. But that concerns only these Japanese manufacturers.

Please give your sources. I regularly visit these manufacturers, and believe me, there is absolutely no way that CRT production will cease in 2 years, or even 5. Unless, again, you believe that "major CRT production" involves ONLY Japanese sources.

What IS happening is that the TV market is fragmenting into two distinct pieces - in North America, Japan, and Europe, the market is essentially saturated; just about everyone HAS a TV, and so new sales come primarily from replacements or upgrades. In those markets, the non-CRT technologies ARE going to start to take significant market share away from the CRT - but that's not the whole picture. Emerging markets, such as China and India, represent HUGE bases of potential customers, but these people can't afford 42" high-definition LCD TVs - those markets will be overwhelmingly CRT-based for a long, long time to come, and that means that the CRT MUST remain available worldwide as the "entry-level" TV technology.

Sorry, there's no news there that contradicts anything said above. The Japanese are exiting the CRT market. Old news. The LCD is also displacing the CRT in the desktop monitor market. Also old news.

(In fact, the LCD has ALREADY displaced the CRT in monitors - LCDs went over the 50% mark in unit volumes last quarter, and will continue to increase their share to somewhat over 80% by 2008.)

I've been following the display industry for about 20 years, and visit about

50-60 display manufacturers each year. I think I'm reasonably qualified to make some statements regarding the near-term forecasts for these markets...:-)

Bob M.