Re: Why were several battery atomic clocks different?

I was wondering if anyone here would know why I saw several battery powered

> atomic clocks (which you can buy at Brookstones/Sharper Image/Sams Club, > etc) all in one place that had different times?

I'm sorry I don't know the places you mention (I assume these are well known American retailers I am not familiar with) but I assume you are not talking of atomic clock but clocks synchronized periodically by radio signal on an HF emitter which is itself connected to an atomic clock.

Having spent a couple of years now trying to synchronize two microcontrollers on the GPS time references (1 PPS signal), I would love to see battery powered atomic clock at a reasonable price, but I don't believe such toys are available yet.

I always thought they updated themselves at least daily and they would not > be different by more than a second, if that. I forget now, but they were > VERY different. 20 seconds, at least.

Of course my previous comments do not answer your question. Unless these clocks rely on the radio signal to stay tuned and use an awfully bad crystal resonator, which I could not understand why (the resonator driving the clock of my PC has an offset of 35 ppm), and drift over one day, I can only think of the solution that due to storage in a window in a large city with large buildings, these particular clocks were unable to read the synchronization radio signal ... which doesn't really make sense at sub-MHz frequencies.

Jean-Michel

Reply to
Jean-Michel Friedt
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Several possibilities for the different times. First, understand that none of these clocks displays NIST time in real time; they are, at heart, stand-along clocks, i.e. with their own oscillators. So after a clock sets itself from NIST, the time it displays - from that point until it sets itself the next time - is its own internally incremented time. If the clock cannot set itself again for "a long time", the time it displays will show drift with respect to NIST.

Some (most?) of these clocks are programmed to set themselves only once per day, usually at night because NIST propagation is best during darkness. So in a location of marginal NIST reception a clock could go for days or weeks without being able to set itself.

Every clock, even clocks of the same model, are at least sightly different from one another. Their oscillators - their heartbeat - run at slightly different rates, and each one drifts at its own rate.

Add all of this up and you should see that what you observe is perfectly understandable.

What is such a clock good for? If its oscillator is pretty stable and accurate and if its receiver picks up NIST often, it's good as a clock that doesn't need human intervention for the "spring ahead; fall back" foolishness. I have three commercially available WWVB "radio clocks" (two different models) and have designed and built two WWV clocks. I love 'em all. (By the way, I live in New York, USA, and both WWV and WWVB come in just fine here.)

Reply to
Michael

Forgot to add: if any of the clocks you saw displayed similar minutes and seconds but were hours apart, they might have been set for different time zones.

Reply to
Michael

Another factor could be that usually reception is poor in metal buildings, as retailers tend to use, so the clocks are probably not be receiving the WWV signal. I have one that instructed me, after inserting batteries, to place it in a window facing Colorado. Since I like in Boulder County, Colorado, that was an easy one. ;-) Mine sports hands, with the second hand jumping each second. It's spot on.

Thad

Reply to
Thad Smith

Realixe first that the "Atomic Clocks" sold by Sharper Image are not atomic clocks at all, they simply are supposed to syncrohize with the NBS clock at certain times of day. Read the fine print and that should give you a clue to what they are selling.

If you find a real atomic clock selling for a price under $4,000 please email me.

Harry C.

Harry C.

Reply to
Harry Conover

They call these battery Atomic Clocks, but in fact they are digital quartz clocks that take their time from the NIST, or one of the number of other time standard services. The correct name would be a "Radio Synchronized Clock", and NOT an Atomic Clock. The average person would never have the funds, and or resources to purchase and maintain a real atomic clock!

The clock has to be first set up to the proper time zone, and put in the mode to receive the time exteraly. The instruction manual should have the details for the particular model.

In a store environment as like in a shopping plaza or department store, with all the lighting, concrete walls, and etc, the signal that it must receive must be highly reduced. At home where the receipton of outside signals are much better, the clock should work normaly. The instruction manual should give the details of how to properly set it up.

As a vendor, I would think it is bad sales practice to have the clocks all being off time to each other. I would have taken the time to set them properly, and then to have the necessary information about them posted. But, this is their problem.

The principle of the clock is that it uses a receiver with a decoder that can decode the time that is sent on the carrier of the NIST station, or the service being used. There are a number of frequencies being used, and the receiver has a system that can scan for the best one. The reception is effected by the atmospheric probagation factors. Shortwave listeners and amature radio operators would be familiar with this. At different times of the day, and under different atmospheric conditions, radio reception will be affected.

When the clock is receiving the NIST signal it keeps itself synchronized to the time signal. When the signal dissapears, the clock will free-run just like any quartz standard clock.

The average accuracy of the clock is dependent on the quality of design, and the reception of the serviced signal. Most of the consumer quartz clocks and watches will keep an accuracy of about 5 to

10 seconds per month. This is for a standard free running quartz clock or watch. There are some very expensive wathes and clocks that can do a bit better. With a radio synchronized clock, the time should be more accurate, because of the periodic corrections during the coarse of each day.

The only error that these clocks will have is their total internal delay, and the time it takes for the signal to reach, and be processed in the clock. This is most likely in the micro-second range of error.

The general trend of many of the manufactures is to start making these clocks the main stream of clocks. This type of clock will be more common on the market over the next number of years. There are also a number of watches coming out with this feature. There are some places where this type of time keeping is now the main stream.

With all of this, I am still late for work at times...

Jerry Greenberg

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"Screaminet News"  wrote in message
news:...
> Sorry if this is not the proper newsgroup for this question.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone here would know why I saw several battery powered
> atomic clocks (which you can buy at Brookstones/Sharper Image/Sams Club,
> etc) all in one place that had different times?
> 
> I always thought they updated themselves at least daily and they would not
> be different by more than a second, if that.  I forget now, but they were
> VERY different.  20 seconds, at least.
> 
> They can't all be right, so what good are they?
> 
> Thanks for any thoughts.
> 
> Ted
Reply to
Jerry Greenberg

In article , snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com mentioned...

Reminds me of Radio Scrap. I go by their TVs as I walk into the store. Seems like they always have a snowy or otherwise poor quality picture on them.

All the ones I've seen so far use only the signal from WWVB at 60 kHz.

[snip]
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Reply to
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'

I built a digital clock around the Dalis 32KHZ TXO chip, and it has a drift of about 28 seconds/year vs WWV. I would love to hook it up to WWV and turn into an "atomic clock" set for either WWV or WWVB. Any way to "twist your arm" to get a post of the schematic of yours? Charlie

Squawk! Pieces of eight! Squawk! Pieces of eight! Squawk! Pieces of eight! Squawk! Pieces of eight! Squawk! Pieces of eight! Squawk! Pieces of nine! SYSTEM HALTED: parroty error!

Reply to
Charles Jean

Jerry Greenberg wrote: [snip]

Most (all?) radio synched clocks for the U.S. consumer market receive only WWVB, and that station broadcasts only on 60 KHz. Battery operated WWVB clocks typically don't monitor NIST continuously (to conserve battery) but only once or twice per day, so it is important for accuracy that their oscillators don't drift terribly.

WWV is the NIST station that transmits on multiple frequencies, and the last clock I saw that received it on multiple freqs. was the Heathkit Most Accurate Clock.

Reply to
Michael

Not much. They use VLF (60KHz), which is ground wave propagation. According to coverage maps (NIST web site), apart from perhaps the Pacific Northwest, part of the day, the whole lower 48 should have greater than

100mV/M all the time. there won't be any fading, 'cos it's ground wave, and there won't be any of the ionospheric phase distortion that ruins HF standard frequency transmissions a lot of the time.
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Reply to
Fred Abse

That's the luminous hands :-)

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Reply to
Fred Abse

s/mV/uV

That's microvolts per meter, sorry.

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Reply to
Fred Abse

Of course!

Back in the 1950s it was popular to name everything "Atomic".

Reply to
Richard Crowley

Or 'o-matic'.

Reply to
A E

In article , snipped-for-privacy@xprt.net mentioned...

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Check out the paragraphs after the sample lyrics.

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Interesting historical info.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'

Or "o-rama"

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Reply to
Fred Abse

Interesting URLs. Some of us(ahem!) can remember living through that era, and it was spooky. It's all wrapped up in the movie, "The Atomic Cafe"-rent it if you can, it's hilarious. CONELRAD, Civil Defense Shelters, Ground Observer Corps, etc.- all because of a couple of pounds of plutonium!

Charlie

Eschew Obfuscation!

Reply to
Charles Jean

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