Re: For All the Michael Moore Fans

I never fail to be amazed at how upset some people get at the alleged

>lies of Moore yet accept without a peep far more harmful lies put out >by Bush and his stooges. Welcome to 1984. >

I agree, but let's look at this.

Moore is biased. Everyone seems acknowledge that. I do too. I don't even think his movie is really that effective, but it IS an attempt to get people thinking. Maybe a failed attempt. I doubt if very many people leave the theater with significantly changed perspectives.

With all the media in our lives our whole world seems to be determined by "spin" and its success rate. So Michael Moore CAN be accued of spin in this documentary. What, about similar issues like the lack of WMDs, is escaping his attackers. Any skewing of information in this movie does not come close to the world-wide propaganda blitz created by this president and his advisers that started a war with justification that has obviously been proven false.

A whole damn war! With death and destruction, human upheaval, grieving families on both sides, and massive economic cost and burden on society. And I am talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan, where we never really tried hard to get the real terrorists.

In our recent rewrite, this war was to depose a brutal tyrant. America wouldn't be there if that was the original story. The original story was based on revenge and fear. Lets go kill some of those terrorist bastards before they get us.

I walked the ground in Vietnam with a rifle in my hands. Most of the old farts in this group will remember that period well. I came out of it proud for my service and knowing that eventually we may have to go to war again, but hoping we would only do that when there was a clear enemy and a reason beyond reproach.

When the American public was being sold the story that got us into Iraq, I kept asking myself why there was no presentation of concrete justification. (Where's the beef? as that old TV ad said.) One night I met a guy from Australia and he reassured me that since his government was buying into the program, there must be something there that we, as common folk, weren't being allowed to know that justified the idea. I think that reassured me too much. I was looking for a reason to believe. As it started I wanted to believe, and pretty much did believe, we were doing the right thing.

So all this happened, and I support our troups who, like me (then), are doing the bidding of their government whether it really makes sense or not. So far no one has stooped to attacking the soldiers much, and I hope that doesn't happen. A few, like the prison guards, might be in deep trouble though, and I am sure this government could easily write them off with the other casualties.

As for this newsgroup, why are so many engineers down on Michael Moore? You guys are usually so logical in everything you do. The biggest and most obvious lie (and how can you argue the WMD thing) was the one that got this war started. Why the disjoint in attributing where the lies are? Be reasonable. Attack the BIG liar, not the one who made this little movie.

-Rex

P.S., I voted for Bush thinking he might be good for the economy. We all make mistakes. I admit this one.

Reply to
xray
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What I would like to know is why do you think the average reader of this group (electronics.design)gives a FLYING FUCK about your political opinions ??

-- Regards ........... Rheilly Phoull

Reply to
Rheilly Phoull

I don't think most readers care. But if they don't care, then why are they reading this OT thread in the first place. I didn't start it.

-Rex

Reply to
xray

: : I agree, but let's look at this. : : Moore is biased. Everyone seems acknowledge that. I do too. I don't even : think his movie is really that effective, but it IS an attempt to get : people thinking. Maybe a failed attempt. I doubt if very many people : leave the theater with significantly changed perspectives. :

Moore = Mendacity

: With all the media in our lives our whole world seems to be determined : by "spin" and its success rate. So Michael Moore CAN be accued of spin : in this documentary. What, about similar issues like the lack of WMDs, : is escaping his attackers. Any skewing of information in this movie does : not come close to the world-wide propaganda blitz created by this : president and his advisers that started a war with justification that : has obviously been proven false.

I keep hearing that it was WMD. My understanding was it was due to a failure to comply with the terms of surrender! The UN has no teeth, and was on the take with bribes from the sale of OIL to help the people of Iraq and other corruption. We took action due to the non-compliance with the Surrender and the potential threat to world peace from a tyrant.

: A whole damn war! With death and destruction, human upheaval, grieving : families on both sides, and massive economic cost and burden on society. : And I am talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan, where we never really : tried hard to get the real terrorists.

: In our recent rewrite, this war was to depose a brutal tyrant. America : wouldn't be there if that was the original story. The original story was : based on revenge and fear. Lets go kill some of those terrorist bastards : before they get us.

This was the only "Story" I ever heard. All the rest was only discussion.

: I walked the ground in Vietnam with a rifle in my hands. Most of the old : farts in this group will remember that period well. I came out of it : proud for my service and knowing that eventually we may have to go to : war again, but hoping we would only do that when there was a clear enemy : and a reason beyond reproach.

As I served in the 1st Division. So I also hoped more wars could be avoided, but not at any cost!

: As for this newsgroup, why are so many engineers down on Michael Moore? : You guys are usually so logical in everything you do. The biggest and : most obvious lie (and how can you argue the WMD thing) was the one that : got this war started. Why the disjoint in attributing where the lies : are? Be reasonable. Attack the BIG liar, not the one who made this : little movie. -Rex

The BIG LIAR made the Movie! It is questioned here because Engineers typically work with "Cold Hard Facts" and want to see the data. More is a consummate liar, and has proven his bias is not a coincidence. He is an opportunist but he only attacks (like any terrorist) only one side. He was OK with Clinton dismantling the intelligence apparatus and crippling our military by inappropriate reductions and use as "Peace Keepers" in places they should not be under the command of the UN. (I didn't serve in the US ARMY to take orders from the UN!)

No, M. Moore, is not a "Nice" man. Nor someone to be believed!

Roger Gt

Reply to
Roger Gt

And you are OK with Bush sending young soldiers to die in an unnecesary war, poorly planned, and ill-equipped?

Well, that's good. How about Halliburton? Will you take orders from Halliburton?

You don't have to believe him. Check out the facts for yourself. If you have the time. Because you won't get them on the evening news.

Reply to
nan

"nan" wrote : "Roger Gt" wrote : : > He was OK with Clinton dismantling the intelligence : > apparatus and crippling our military by inappropriate reductions : : And you are OK with Bush sending young soldiers to die in an unnecesary war, : poorly planned, and ill-equipped?

Your choice of words indicate that you are not playing with a full deck!

I am Okay with the over throw of a tyrant. And freeing the people of Iraq from a dictatorship.

BTW: I design weapon systems, I know that the current military is one hell of a lot better equipped than I was when I was in the Army. We didn't have body armor, laser guided weapons, night vision goggles, nor many of the "Neat" stuff that is standard issue now!

By Family has a tradition of spending time in the service, My son was in Desert Storm, and we have always made the best of what we had to work with.

: > and use as "Peace Keepers" in places they should not be under the : > command of the UN. : > (I didn't serve in the US ARMY to take orders : > from the UN!) : Well, that's good. How about Halliburton? Will you take orders from : Halliburton?

I don't work for Halliburton, and they do not give orders to the military!

: > No, M. Moore, is not a "Nice" man. Nor someone to be believed! : You don't have to believe him. Check out the facts for yourself. If you : have the time. Because you won't get them on the evening news. :

I have checked, and will continue to do so. But it will likely not result in my trusting M. More...

G-Night all. Off to Disneyland. Better class of people there, ya Know.

Reply to
Roger Gt

Exactly! You are already living in fantasy land.

Reply to
xray

: Exactly! You are already living in fantasy land.

Gee, thank you. That would be nice!

Reply to
Roger Gt

Because, as it is, Michael Moore supposedly speaks for the "side of reason", yet what we see in the behaviour of the European "intellectuals" is that

*any lie*, *any breach of trust* and - I assume - *any vile act* is acceptable and even praised as long as it serves the overall purpose of "the cause".

I.O.W: The very people who are supposed to invoke critical thinking are actually not very different from the Taliban in the way they go about it!

Michael Moore is just another Goebbels.

The guys at my local Pizza Joint lost family members to chemical weapons - so Saddam had them at some point and certainly used them with gay abandon; It's not a big mistake to assume that a character like Saddam would do that again.

The Big Mistake - or lie - is believing that one can civilise the Middle East by invasion; one can, in theory, if one is willing to "civilise" like Djengis Khan or Cortez, but i suppose that is not what civilisation is about.

Europe killed 40% of it's entire population in various religious wars before that Catholic Church, the Fundamentalists of that time, finally was purged and replaced by secular governments. The removal of the priests from power caused Trade, Education, Health and Living Standards to grow to the unprecedented level we enjoy now.

The Arabs will need to go through the same process - the problem is that cold war politics and dependence on Oil is preventing it from happening.

...and that's the real tragedy - that the West is gleefully supporting any vile and discusting regime as long as the Oil flows!

>
Reply to
Frithiof Andreas Jensen

-- Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts:

"What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . . Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789

Reply to
AZGuy

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