tiny inductor with every bypass cap?

Hello,

I was looking at the schematics for a DSP-based board, running at 100 MHz. They have a tiny inductor with every bypass cap around the DSP. Do you think this is necessary? This DSP has analog stuff built-in. If we do not need analog, can the inductors be eliminated?

Thanks, T.I.

Reply to
Talal Itani
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Seems overkill. ADI reference designs don't use anything like that, although they follow PSU chips with an inductor.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
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Reply to
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

Great, which DSP ?

Depends, which DSP ??

This DSP has analog stuff built-in. If we do not

It must be a secret, what does the manufacture of the DSP say ??

donald

Reply to
donald

Search for newsgroup postings with "Jeorg" and "ground" or "grounding" in them.

You'll get a load of (AFAIK) good opinions.

Inductors in series with the caps would tend to isolate the power supply from noise in the DSP, but it would also create a bunch of odd resonances. It's not how I'd want to isolate a power supply from a chip.

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Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Reply to
Tim Wescott

Inductors don't generally help digital chips, and may actually reduce timing margins. We do use ferrite bead+capacitor filters on the supply rails of some fast opamps and adc's, to keep switcher noise and other-channel crosstalk from sneaking in.

The best way to power big digital chips is with solid power planes, reasonably bypassed. That will present lower rail impedances than you could get by isolating the bypass caps on a per-pin basis.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Is it possible the inductors represent the inductance of the layout, rather than actual parts on the BOM?

Reply to
a7yvm109gf5d1

Are you sure that these are ordinary inductors or just a wire through a ferrite bead?

While the ferrite will increase the inductance, a suitable ferrite material is also quite lossy at higher frequencies, reducing the risk for unwanted resonances with the capacitors.

Paul

Reply to
Paul Keinanen

The DSP is a TI F2808. The schematics I was referring to are here

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It is a zip file. Once you unzip the file, 2 pdf files appear. The larger file has the schematics I am referring to. The inductors are at the top-left corner of the screen.

Reply to
Talal Itani

I cannot tell. I do not have BOM. The schematics are here, a zip file that has 2 PDF files. The large PDF file has the schematics. The inductors are at the top-left corner of the page. Thanks.

Reply to
Talal Itani

That's interesting, the resonance frequency for 100nF with 50uH is about 21KHz. I wonder what the resonance-decoupling-multi-value caps crowd has to say about this design?

Reply to
a7yvm109gf5d1

This mediocre design is obviously made by a superstitious and unexperienced person. There are several things in the schematics that should be done differently. No wonder that at some time ago the designer had burned with the EMC, and after that he sticks the inductors everywhere. The value of 50uH is ridiculous. Never mind those inductors; with the sensible layout the F28xx doesn't need them.

Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

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Reply to
Vladimir Vassilevsky

BTW, 50uH isn't really "tiny".

Reply to
a7yvm109gf5d1

z.

u

do not

Sadly, you can't rely on this. I've had to put little resistors in series with ferrite bead to kill a resonance - admittedly at a few hundred kHz, where the bead doesn't look that lossy.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
bill.sloman

What if we are not sensible about the layout? Meaning, I layout the board myself.

Reply to
Talal Itani

Ok, maybe not tiny. I have never seen this before, so I wonder whey these inductors are there.

Reply to
Talal Itani

To be honest 50uH and 0.1uF is a recipe for disaster. At the most a ferrite SMT-bead should be used but usually I don't even do that. A nice full ground plane and a nice full VCC plane is usually best. Problem with DSP like this is that you need an additional lower voltage supply so now you are up to three supply planes, meaning you won't get away with less than a 6-layer board.

If it's super critical you could have the analog supplies come from a separate regulator but often converters on a chip with fast digital processing going on are quite disappointing. A bond wire affords only so much in RF conductivity.

Hint: Carefully read up on power supply sequencing. Best case wriobng sequencing leads to a locked up DSP, worst case to a dead DSP.

Oh, and please don't top post.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Reply to
Joerg

Possibly a very young guy did the design. There are people who take a sledgehammer to hang a picture. Sometimes the sledgehammer then makes a hole in the wall ;-)

For RF it's huge. Like a sledgehammer. Sledgehammers can cause a lot of grief.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Reply to
Joerg

Thanks for the kudos. It would have to be "Joerg" though. Sometimes I wish I had an easier name.

It will become really interesting when the DSP exhibits a somewhat burst-like load behavior. On the scope it'll look like Dolphins frolicking in the ocean.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Reply to
Joerg

'O' before 'E' unless I'm at sea?

Dunno why I can't keep it straight.

That's kinda what I thought. Plus I see no reason to do each power line individually, and some good reasons not to (Different versions of VDD at different points in the circuit, oh boy!).

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Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Reply to
Tim Wescott

WHAT? You mean that semiconductor companies hire kids with no real experience fresh out of college to be applications engineers?

Now THAT would imply that they look at their applications engineers as a marketing expense, not a profit center.

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Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Reply to
Tim Wescott

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