Re: what java enabled devices are there other than cell phones

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One potential advantage is that the large number of libraries should allow
for rapid development.  But, large-scale code reuse has various side effects
as well.  Selection of a programming language affects the developer more
than the customer, but if me-the-consumer can get a fancy new product months
earlier for the same cost, or at the same time but cheaper, then I'm all for
Java.  This whole line of reasoning sort of assumes that developer time is a
large factor (if not the dominating factor) in overall product cost,
however; I've not seen this to be the case very often.

I've been watching the various Java-for-embedded projects out there (muvium,
JStik) and I've yet to see anyone report significant commercial advantage
using Java.  I'm seeing a fair number of big companies reporting that they
are moving their software development offshore to cheaper locales, so it
might take several more years before development costs dominate hardware
unit costs and make Java cost effective for widespread embedded use.

As for career choices, I can't see much of a downside to learning Java.  But
I can see a big downside for an "embedded" developer *not* knowing C and
assembler.

Kelly



Re: what java enabled devices are there other than cell phones
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 Some smart cards use a script language java derivative, and the
thinking here is to decouple the deep core, for security
perception reasons.

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Only if the underlying HW is close enough, and this is true of any
language.

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 This misses the point - adding any script language will DELAY product
release,
not hasten it ( tho SUN will try and spin otherwise )

 The REAL reason things like phones have Java has much more to do with
after market sales, and revenue streams, than any embedded design
decision.

 Look at the revenue stream of ring tones, for example :
'If we make this feature programmable, we can get more $$$ from the
customer.'


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Java came and went, from the truly embedded scene, a couple of years
ago.
Just a single DAC had an embedded Java spin.

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 There are not many embedded products that benefit from a script
language,
and Java is quite a costly script language (resource wise).

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Re: what java enabled devices are there other than cell phones

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I don't quite understand you here.  Are you saying Java is a 'script'
language?  And if you are, what the heck is a 'script' language compared to
any other programming language?  And why would a 'script' language delay
product development?

I'm not trying to be stupid, I just usually use 'script' to refer to things
like bash, awk, and perl.  (Yes, I know perl is compiled at runtime.)  I
don't generally lump Java into that camp because there are readily available
CPUs that speak Java natively, and native code Java compilers are common for
other architectures.

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I believe that over time, more Java will see its way into embedded apps.
But it's got an uphill battle, IMHO.  Java seems to have carved out a niche
for itself in the data centers, where Unix lived for decades before making
some moves into embedded devices.

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I agree that Java takes more hardware resources on most architectures than
alternatives like C and assembly.  That's why I said that Java only makes
sense if the development resources dominate per-unit hardware costs, and if
the programmers really can develop faster with Java than an alternative.
Two big "ifs", and it's conceivable there are places where they'd come true.

Kelly



Re: what java enabled devices are there other than cell phones
Yes, that's a problem. The cell phone market gets all the attention from
Sun. They write all the J2ME specs for this market and forget the rest of
the embedded world. I would like to see a common specification of a subset
for Java to build a base for embedded devices (without all this Swing stuff,
just a reduced library).

I'm interested in this because I'm working on a Java processor (not a
product): http://www.jopdesign.com /

Perhaps it can be used to build Java enabled embedded systems :)
Martin

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Re: what java enabled devices are there other than cell phones
That JOP is some very impressive work.

Dan



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Re: what java enabled devices are there other than cell phones
Hi Dan,

want to try it :)

be warned: not easy to get started, but that's the fun of embedded systems.

Martin

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Re: what java enabled devices are there other than cell phones


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The DVB-T MHP set top boxes contain a Java interpreter so that various
hardware independent applications can be downloaded into the STB from
the DVB (MPEG2) transport stream over the air.

Java and other interpreted languages make sense in situations in which
the code must be execution platform independent and heavily restricted
to avoid data security problems such as in cellular phones and set top
boxes.
 
In industrial controllers the IEC (6)1131 language family is widely
used with data types suitable for the industrial controller
environment. I don't see much benefit for using Java in such devices
anyway.

Paul


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