Plumbing

How about motorized valves for water softeners?

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Well, maybe it's just really really *small*!! :>

Yup.

They make these. They are called actuators. In the $200 range and essentially exactly what you have described. I.e., you can monitor whether the "valve" -- technically, the handle -- is in the full open or full closed position. This is especially important for ball valves as any position "in the middle" will result in the valve failing over time (as the water scours a new path through the ball!)

Yeah but the resolution is really *coarse* (1G). I think that will be the problem I will face: these sorts of devices are probably aimed at monitoring overall consumption over long periods of time whereas I am more interested in monitoring *rate* (I can always integrate over an infinite interval but I can't get any more resolution than the device affords)

Thanks, I will poke around. I should probably call the local water company and see what options present themselves on that front. Maybe modify (externally) the metering of an existing meter to get the increased resolution?

--don

"In theory", that's the case. In practice... Talk to any tradesman and he'll have numerous "Code War" stories for you (i.e., the Inspector is often the final authority on Code issues and, in many jurisdictions, can't be "appealed"/litigated)

Yup. My attitude is that the Code(s) exist for a reason. And, the folks writing those rules are probably a helluvalot smarter than I when it comes to those issues! But, getting *clear* explanations (interpretations) of their meaning and intent is difficult, at best!

It would be "tedious", at best. Replacing the water heater at a later date would be complicated by that sort of pipework.

And, it's not even a case of compliance vs. getting a variance! I can't get anyone to *swear* to "what's correct"! It seems, in many cases, folks just adopt a "that's the way it's BEEN done" which doesn't mean that's the *only* way it *can* be done (and still comply).

E.g., dishwashers are typically installed adjacent to the sink. And, *typically*, the plumbing and electrical connections to the dishwasher are fed from *under* the sink, through the side of the "sink base (cabinet)" to the dishwasher. But, that's not a "requirement".

Dunno. Conceivably, an excessively LONG pipe feeding the expansion tank *downstream* from the water heater could pose some problems but that would be easy to codify. E.g., there are rules regarding what sort of rise is required for a given length of a given diameter drain line to ensure water does flow in that line relying solely on gravity.

Frustrating when you are used to fetching specs out of a datasheet, etc.

On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 19:45:57 -0700 in comp.arch.embedded, Don Y wrote,

I guess you want to make sure the pressure doesn't cycle on and off more than necessary, repeatedly stretching and relaxing the hose, causing it to fail.

>

I don't know what the failure mode/causes of these hoses is. I've had hoses last 30 years (though always with the pressure "released" when not in use). Yet, the hoses we bought for the new washer/dryer failed *dramatically* in the first couple of days (again, keeping the water "off" when not in use).

I had a flex line to a toilet "spontaneously" fail early one morning "all by itself". Thankfully, the sound of the rushing water woke me and I was able to turn the stop before any water had accumulated on the floor (I am a VERY light sleeper).

The thing most folks fail to understand with these "braided wire jacketed" hoses is that it is still a "rubber" hose inside the jacket. Granted, the jacket provides some additional support/strength to the wall of the tube. But, the nature of the material that is actually containing the water hasn't changed!

E.g., sometimes, corrugated copper is a better choice (though often harder to work with and sometimes a bit unsightly)

--don

The ones that I have seen are too "integrated" into the functionality of the softener. E.g., it's like one giant actuator that alters multiple water paths at the same time (I'm guessing it pushes the brine through the resin and recharge the brine tank at the same time -- or, in a fixed/timed sequence).

Trying to break this down item by item...

The valve for the main supply needs to be 3/4 - 1", expect supply pressure "upstream" at any time when I would want it "on" (though it should always shut *off* regardless of pressure upstream). It can be slow acting because it isn't intended to be closed often. E.g., when a "leak" is detected in the house, the remedy is to close off this valve. When open, it should result in very little pressure drop across the valve, no appreciable flow restriction, etc.

The stops for the individual sinks, toilets, etc. need to be relatively fast acting -- so I can close it, observe any differences in flow rate, then reopen it to restore any flow that may have been interrupted. The "Asco" valves referenced elsewhere in this thread are *almost* right. My concern is that they are smaller than the lines that they will be inserted into. E.g., only an ice maker uses a 1/4" line -- sinks/toilets use larger. I would be concerned that EVEN OPEN they would represent a restriction that, while probably not significantly impacting flow rate, could result in a perceptible "whistle". I.e., 3/8 or 1/2 would be a more reassuring size.

The valve for washing machine is probably comparable to that for the main supply. Eventually, I would think the valve would mimic the operation/performance of the valves within the washer and dryer. (I.e., imagine your washing machine had *no* valves in it but, instead, could interact with EXTERNAL valves located in the supply lines immediately upstream from the appliance).

Flow meter is the real ball-buster. I'm obviously trying to skimp by measuring EVERYTHING in one place -- instead of measuring at each point where water is dispensed (there, one could presumably size the meter to fit the types of consumption at each point -- e.g., you would tend to measure larger flow rates in a shower than at the ice maker!).

*Ideally*, I would like to be able to tell that someone poured a glass of water (!) -- ~6oz. And, since I am watching the meter in real time, the more "resolution" I can get, the better my appraisal of how much water is flowing and how *fast*.

E.g., a tiny leak can be indistinguishable from "pouring a glass of water" (over a VERY long time!). This depends on how the sensor operators (i.e., a paddle-wheel gives you no indication of how fast it is spinning *between* pulses).

Ideally, I'd like a "capable" transducer to which I can mate my own electronics. I.e., to gain whatever resolution I want (at my expence)

--don

In that case you need to learn the regs yourself. Not so trivial. Start with a copies of these; "Uniform Building Code", "Uniform Plumbing Code", State variants of the previous two, and the County and City regs on the topic. Shouldn't set you back more than $500 and about a years time.

That would take about a year to digest. Alternatively you could spend some money an appropriate Licensed Engineer and pick his/her brains as they likely do know the local codes in fairly well and how to find the topic of interest. This could easily set you back a few grand but only a couple of weeks time.

Your choice.

?-)

OK. I think i understand well enough to get the answers, but from the specs i have seen the flow sensor is likely to be sell over $1000. Nor do i see many better solutions with more flow sensors as there would be many of them.

?-)

I don't know... I don't design solenoid valves for a living. I just know what I read in the data sheets.

Depends on the results. If one valve always flows within 5-10% of the other, I probably can't say with certainty that the valve design causes the difference. If one valve always flows 50% less than the other, then yeah, I feel better about pointing to the valve design.

Like I said, I don't *know* if those valves have a lower flow rate than other kinds of valves. I was proposing one way to test the flow rate using hardware-store parts. If you want results accurate to a fraction of a percent, you can buy a room full of test equipment and go to town with different fluids, temperatures, pressures, flow rates, turbulence, and whatever else you can think of.

New thought: A lot of water meters have electronic remote reading these days. I wonder if there is some kind of signal there that you could use? On the other hand, a lot of water bills are to the nearest

100 gallons, so it may not be accurate enough.

A couple of water meters I have observed have a "ticker" that seems to turn and click every time a small amount of water is used - like less than a gallon. I don't know if the electronic readers bring out a signal from that, but maybe that would be useful.

And then... do what? Print a log of when people flushed the toilet? Or just turn off the main to stop a leak?

Matt Roberds

Whenever I buy gas for my car, the pump measures the amount dispensed down to a fraction of an ounce (it's easy to put in one penny worth of gas, etc). Maybe the mechanism for that is expensive, but it's clearly feasible.

Most of this is available "for public inspection" at local library. But, even if you can cite code "chapter and verse" and *think* (i.e., are SURE!) what you are doing is "to code", the inspector's opinion is all that matters! If he's never seen what you are doing and/or isn't real receptive to "new ideas" (even if they *do* comply with the regs), he says "No" and it's "No"!.

Better approach is to find devices that *look* like they would work and are *targeted* to this sort of application. Then, find actual customers and installations that you can point to: "OK, if you won't let *me* do this, then you probably need to notify XYZ company that *their* use of this same product in the same sort of application is also non-compliant. I've now notified you, in writing, of this noncompliance..."

[Hence my original interest on seeing this in doctor's office]

One thing's for sure: if it looks like a kludge, you can probably bet its going to raise eyebrows! :<

--don

Hi Matt,

[Coulda sworn I already answered this -- but d>>>> Given their stated application (e.g., water conditioners), I wonder

Yes, but that only works for *that* valve... i.e., for *me*. I would want others to be able to buy the "same" valve and

*know* it will behave the same. Not worry that the manufacturer changed fabrication and one of the "undocumented" aspects (that I had relied upon) is now behaving differently.

Actually, 100cu ft! (almost 1000 gallons!) Note that the goal of the meter that the utility uses is different from the role I want to address. Therein lies "The Rub".

I think the electronic readers just tell you what the "accumulator" reads. I.e., no way to see what's upstream of that (in the signal path). I will look into seeig if I can beg/borrow a sample unit to investigate. Perhaps a simple way of repurposing it. I.e., the "display" might be removable -- leaving a bare transducer (mechanical or electronic) that I could possibly interface with (without violating the "water path")

Whole purpose of instrumenting location, utility (gas/water/electric) usage, etc. is to get some idea of what likely *activities* user is engaged in. I.e., establish a *context* surrounding him/her.

Then, use this context plus observations of the actions he/she calls on the system to perform on his behalf to help the system *predict* his likely future actions in that same/similar context.

I.e., if you listen to The News (TV or radio -- and, a *preferred* broadcast!) while *shaving* in the morning, then issuing the command "news" in a similar situation should result in that particular broadcast being piped to your location (i.e., without you having to further qualify the request: "New, TV, KXYZ")

If the phone rings while you are in the *shower*, perhaps the system should route it to voice mail automatically -- with a message like "I'll call you back in 15 minutes". (OTOH, if you are not at home at all, it might serve up a different message).

If someone comes to the front door while you're sitting on The Throne, maybe it gives you an audio connection to the front door (two-way video being out of the question, of course :>). Or, tells the visitor to leave a message, leave the package, come back later, etc.

The point is to infer activities from how the user is interacting with his environment without directly *querying* the user every

10 minutes! Or, relying on the user to fully qualify every request he makes.

E.g., if you are wheelchair bound and wheel up to the sink, you probably want water dispensed or something rinsed/washed. You probably *don't* want ice cubes dispensed! If you are deaf and someone "rings" the front doorbell and you are in the back yard, the "flashing light" in the living room is probably not going to get your attention. If you are blind, wandering into the garage to *feel* if the garage door is up or down is an awfully expensive way of making a simple test!

--don

I think there are suitable transducers. The problem is getting one that is "bare" and not already connected to a totalizer, etc.

And, ensuring the water path is "certified" for potable water.

There are worse problems trying to get sensors for the electric and gas (even though some of these are now equipped with remote readers in the same way that water utilities are). But, I can kludge an *optical* reader for each of those and steer clear of regulatory issues. The same *might* be possible with SOME water meters. But, often the water meter is located below grade. So, you can't easily "watch" it (optically).

(Some of the places I've lived have had them located in the basement. This would be easy to instrument!)

--don

I suspect the RoHS applies to how the coil wires are connected to the solder tabs. :>

That looks a lot like the sort of valve you would find in a washing machine. Given its from sparkfun, I would venture it is intended for use in things like swimming pools, jacuzzis, fountains, irrigation and places where folks don't realize what they *might* be injesting! :>

If you saw it as part of the water fountain at a local restaurant, would you give it a "second thought"?

The stuff that's used in foodservice equipment should be safe. As someone else mentioned, look for the NSF certification.

eg.

Building codes are another matter.. and if it fails and causes a flood.. I don't imagine mold is a worry there, but still maybe it could cause damage.. insurance might not pay off.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

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The only ones I've seen, so far, are smallish.

Or, radioactive waste products...

Hmmm,... some of these look promising (technically). Though I will have to explore the "certification" issue.

(I need to sneak back into doctor's office and start peeking around under the sink!)

Thx!

--don

Yeah I looked at this but the plastic body and resemblence to an irrigation valve gave me pause. It also appears to be piloted. (not a deal breaker but something I would prefer not to sacrifice unless no other option)

Ooooo! These look nice (though also appear piloted?). I'll have to look at flow rates, etc.

ROTFLMAO! Home town! I will have to give them a call!

And, how an inspector is likely to react to seeing something like this (esp the first valve -- too reminiscent of an irrigation valve). Or, a "home inspection" when the time comes to sell the house (in which case, remove the valve and forget it ever existed!)

Neighbor actually has problem with mold inside a wall. Fairly common, I guess. Apparently, some homes used polybutylene pipes (which are crap, I guess?). And, roof mounted swamp coolers leaking into the house (which may or may not involve the wallspaces).

Thx!

--don

It could be all plastic, no metal or lead.

That's impossible, not many places have the infrastructure to build such thing.

I have the 1" FIP sensor and valve.

The valve can open or close in 10 seconds, using 500mA at 15V.

The flow meter has mechanical readout as well as digital pulses. But we might design out the mechanical readout to reduce cost and size.

Don't know. My client brought them in Germany. I just have to figure out how to interface/control them. Eventually, we might want to build one.

Sort of, at least figure out how they work.