Plumbing

Hi,

I need to instrument a domestic (commercial) potable water supply.

Specifically, I need:

- electrically operable stop for main supply

- electrically operable stop for each sink, etc.

- electrically readable flow meter capable of detecting small changes in flow rate (either instantaneously or with external computational assistance over short intervals) -- probably on a site-wide scale (e.g., whole house, whole business, etc.)

Since these are in the domestic/potable supplies, they have to be lead free, etc. (i.e., probably not "made in china" -- WTF? Do they have some large box of lead shot on the wharf and a rule that says everything exported must be rubbed in this bed for a few minutes before being placed on the boat???)

And, since it will also have to work in a residential setting, probably available with 2xFIP or thereabouts. Probably 3/4" or 1" (most commercial settings are 2" or larger flanges)

Ideally, the stops will be reasonably quick acting so they can be exercised "invisibly".

Flow meter should be designed such that service personnel unfamiliar with these sorts of devices aren't placed in harms way when servicing the system.

Of course, everything has to be "install and forget" (for a LONG time... not something that has to be maintained regularly; e.g., gate valves are out of the question).

So far, my casual queries in some of the larger plumbing supply shops have been met with blank stares (c'mon... hasn't *anyone* purchased something like this in town??)

Anyone *design* any of these devices? (I used to know a guy who designed mass flow meters but have since lost his contact info) Or, design anything like them *into* something??

Thx,

--don

Reply to
Don Y
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Don Y :

Same aioe.org troll airhead.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

My brain is starting very slow today. By "stop" do you mean the supply valve or a stopper for the drain?

If it is supply, go find you one of those Delta touch faucets and see what is in side. There are also the kind in wash rooms where you put your hand under them and they turn on. For the mains I'm not sure. I had electric valves on my pool when I lived in Phoenix. I could switch the flow from pool to spa. They were 2" and had a motor that bolted on the top. You could reduce them down. Check out a pool supply. Never had a problem with them and they were mounted outside in the sun. Irrigation supply house would probably have something. No big farms in So. AZ anymore but there are a lot of golf courses.

Your normal house water meter (the electronic readable kind) might be OK for flow. How small is small? These guys might have something or point you some where:

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[snip]
--
Chisolm 
Republic of Texas
Reply to
Joe Chisolm

"Stop" as in a valve that is intended to be used in a full-on/full-off configuration. I.e., not something that is used to adjust flow *rate* but, rather, to *gate* the flow on or off.

Yeah, but unless I wanted to use one "as is", it would be tedious to repurpose such a thing (and, questionable as to whether or not it would then pass Code)

That's an idea! Though the "potable water" use may get in the way there. Motorized might present some problems (as it would be hard to ensure enough power available to open/close them in the *absence* of ACmains)

I'd also thought of these "interrupters" that are used to protect against flooding from ruptured washing machine hoses. But, not sure how they would scale (nor whether they would be appropriate for use on *potable* supplies).

I've already used irrigation valves for the *outside* water distribution (i.e., for each irrigation zone as well as each hose bibb). But, again, not sure how well they would be "received" on potable use. I can just see an inspector looking at them and envisioning them *outdoors* and then getting into a Code war...

Ideally, the municipality would make that "data" available to the consumer in real time (assuming you can't "corrupt" it and thus "steal" water). But, we don't have an instrumented meter and I suspect *asking* for one (if they would even entertain that request) and relying (*paying*) on the water department to install it would be insanely expensive.

Apparently, also, these meters are notorious for their INaccuracy! (I should grab a bucket and do some first-hand measurements)

I would like to be able to notice (in a residential setting):

- nothing *should* be using water yet water is flowing I.e., a water line has ruptured (e.g., the supply to a toilet, dishwasher, washing machine/dryer, etc.) *or* something has a slow leak (like a toilet)

- an additional 1.6 gallons just surged through the main in the last 12 seconds...

- someone must be running the shower, etc.

Thanks! I'll chase down those two leads! Sheesh, you'd think this was rocket science or somesuch... :<

--don

Reply to
Don Y

I am sure the "potable water" spec is the catch. Most of the valves/meters you are requesting are OTS units for industrial use - boilers, cooling towers, etc. The code writers really get picky when potable water supplies are involved. Overall, the fresh water supply in the US is remarkably free of nasty stuff, all the way to the tap, and I'm sure the code writers want to keep it that way. Tom

Reply to
Tom Hoehler

Exactly. I'm sure an inspector would quickly recognize an "irrigation valve" used in a potable water supply line and balk at the idea. OTOH, a valve certified as being suitable for use in domestic potable water applications at least gives you a foot in the door to argue for its acceptance.

And, if you can find someplace that is already *using* such things, then all the more power to you!

[Apparently, there are even tougher "lead" regulations coming down the road as I see more an d more manufacturers touting the lead content (lack thereof) in their plumbing fixtures]

--don

Reply to
Don Y

I dont agree with this line of thought. You can go down to your local hardware store and buy any number of irrigation valves that you promptly plumb into the "potable" supply that comes in from the street. The only thing the code guys want to see is a vacuum breaker to prevent bad stuff from flowing back into their supply. I have had irrigation systems, the pool automatic filler, evap cooling systems, all plumed into the house main supply (before it actually went into the house). Many cities have code regs now that any outdoor faucet has to have a back flow preventer but that has nothing to do with what type of valve you want to use on your sink. There are DWV rules about distance between faucet outlet and the max level of water in the sink and such. If you wanted to use washing machine valves to control the hot and cold on the kitchen sink I doubt there would be an issue from the plumbing guy. Now the electrical folks would want to make sure everything was OK and the electrons would always flow to the valves and not the people.

--
Chisolm 
Republic of Texas
Reply to
Joe Chisolm

But, in each of these cases, the "load" end of the valve was not supplying DRINKING WATER to the residents!

Back-flow preventer/anti-siphon device exists to prevent "surface water" (which, around here, often contains pesticides and herbicides) from being sucked into the municipal water supply in the (unlikely) event that the city loses water pressure (far more likely to occur when a fire crew is *pulling* water from a nearby hydrant and, in the process, sucking water off your front lawn via your garden hose or subterranean irrigation lines).

I replumbed the irrigation system *and* hose bibbs to sit downstream of a "master valve/anti-siphon device" for exactly this reason (it's also a Code requirement -- though it seems to only be selectively enforced).

I'm not sure of that. I've found these folks (and tradesmen, too often) to be very unimaginative/intolerant in what they consider "legitimate/legal/appropriate" -- especially given that these things become part of the home (i.e., not some "accessory" that you can remove at will).

For example, I want to install a pressure reducing valve, here. That necessitates the addition of an expansion tank (though, interestingly, many folks seem ignorant of this!).

But, the way the house is plumbed, installing such a tank would have to be "past" the hot water heater (though only a foot or so).

Conceptually, this shouldn't make a difference (?). Water expanding from the water heater should be able to expand into this tank regardless of whether it is located "between the pressure regulator and the water heater" *or* "just past the water heater" (i.e., while still on the "regulated" side of the valve).

Yet, ask a plumber and he'll give you the deer-in-headlights stare. When *pressed*, he'll cite "between the pressure regulator and the hot water heater". Trying to get him to explain why "just past the water heater" would be "UNacceptable" and he'll mumble and change the subject. (I've sprung this question on more than a dozen plumbers, so far!)

[I.e., the folks who *make* the rules/Code obviously have a different level of understanding than those who implement/enforce them!]

I'd like something I could point to (cite) before putting the house at risk (occupancy, resale, etc.). Ideally, "existing practice"!

Reply to
Don Y

The local appliance parts store will have solenoid valves for refrigerator ice makers that will get you part of the way there. The inlet will be something like a compression fitting for 1/4" tube and the outlet is either a fitting for 1/4" or so tube or a barb fitting that a rubber hose goes over. They almost always have a 120 V solenoid.

Clothes washers and dishwashers have similar valves, but making the "potable" argument will be harder. The clothes washer valve will have

2x 3/4" garden hose inputs and probably barb output. The dishwasher valve will be similar to the icemaker valve, but probably 3/8" in and out.

One of these that I took apart was made by Eaton, but I get the impression that they will be confused if you want to buy 10 valves; they usually sell thousands at a time to OEMs.

If you want a real, official valve, Asco sells a bunch of solenoid valves, and even has some listed as "Potable water and food service", with NSF approvals. The solenoids come in various AC and DC voltages.

1/2" or 3/4"
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1/8" or 1/4"
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The one electronic flow meter I once tried to use had an interesting spec: there needed to be a relatively long section of straight pipe (like 3 feet or 1 meter) on the inlet side, or else it would read incorrectly. We didn't have that much room, so we used a loop with the biggest radius we could, but that didn't work right.

Offhand I don't know what to recommend. Omega has *one* NSF-rated flow sensor, 3/8" NPT, 4 gpm max, that can give you either ~5,000 or ~10,000 pulses per gallon:

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If the stops are going to operate on flowing water often, consider that this will probably cause some impressive pressure spikes in the supply lines. You might want to install a water hammer arrester along with the stops.

Standard disclaimers apply: I don't get money or other consideration from any companies mentioned.

Matt Roberds

Reply to
mroberds

For the valves, at least, how about something like:

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For the flowmeters, something like:

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plus their electronics kit:

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They do make some stuff rated for potable water, but you'd probably have to talk to them to see what fits where.

Reply to
Robert Wessel

I think trying to repurpose something intended to reside *inside* some other product is probably not the right way to proceed. Packaging, safety, etc. issues can raise eyebrows.

Ideally, I was looking for a nice valve designed to be soldered (or FIP) into a copper line. Like any other valve you would encounter in home plumbing.

I'd found the smaller valves previously and dismissed them as too small for all but toilet, ice maker, etc. One could argue that they

*might* be acceptable for sinks despite the fact that most sinks are fed from 1/2" pipe (which is usually reduced to ~3/8 in the actual fixture and flex lines).

But, these *look* like what I've imagined such a valve should look like!

The larger units are news to me! Though they sure look like irrigation valves -- despite their certification! :-/ Given their stated application (e.g., water conditioners), I wonder if that suggests a reduced capacity/flow rate over what you would expect from a "normal" (gate, ball, etc.) valve of similar pipe size?

I found this: which appears to just be a traditional ball valve with an actuator (undoubtedly motorized) attached -- and some smarts to give it a defined role. I'd hate to have to go that route but it might be acceptable for the "main" (dealing with power outages would be an issue to evaluate... a "sane" strategy that is safe from exploit with only minor inconvenience?)

Turbulence?

I know some ultrasonic meters require a sizable straight length "in" the meter to work their magic. And, some mass flow meters that operate on the coriolis principle *need* a fair bit of size/loop.

That would only work if I used several of them to monitor each place water is consumed (small diameter). Our main is 3/4" and I think the newer Code calls for a full *inch*! (this in a place where water is *scarce*??? )

Yes. I figure I could fit them in each location. They don't need to be "instant on/off". But, need to be fast enough that the measurement system can noticeably "see" their actions. E.g., "slow close" valves could work but probably aren't necessary.

E.g., if you can only measure at one point (main), one way to

*guess* at where water is being consumed is to temporarily gate that point OFF and see if the flow rate at the measurement point changes. Think a flex line to a toilet has ruptured? Turn off the supply to that toilet and see if the metering unit "notices". Likewise, see if it *also* notices when you restore that service! [Granted, this isn't conclusive but can be *almost* so! Especially if you know what else is happening in the environment (i.e., no one *in* the bathroom so why does the water appear to be running??) ]

Ah. I was going to tell them to be prompt with your payment!! :>

Thx!

--don

Reply to
Don Y

Gack! $470? I guess that silver colored metal that it appears to be made out of must be *platinum*!! :-/

Even *more* outrageous! Folks, we're in the WRONG BUSINESS! :>

I should call the local water department and see where they get their meters from. At those sorts of prices (and questions over whether or not they are suitable for potable water), I would imagine it could be cheaper to pay gummit rates for one!! :-/

In theory, this: should be rated for potable water ($125). But, it's so "consumery" that I don't find much hard data regarding its performance, certification, etc.

(There are similar products -- other vendors -- for non-potable use like washing machine, dishwasher, etc. Though you can only assume the one for the water heater was designed with "human consumption" in mind)

I'll have to look into metering technologies to see if there is anything more appropriate/affordable available.

--don

Reply to
Don Y

Solenoid valves. They're used in foodservice equipment for potable water. I don't know about your local codes, but they are going to be safe. Eg. Asco. Maybe find them cheap on eBay (that were used for controlling sewage flow or something).

Try Gems. Eg. wetted materials Nylon, graphite-loaded PTFE bearings.

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

soemthing like this?

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-Lasse

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Nah... Then you'd have to add another zero...

I suspect it's mostly just a device with a very limited market, and its priced accordingly.

But it makes a homebrew solution temping. Take a ball valve with a lever style arm, fasten it to the back of a large gear, arrange a worm drive and motor on the periphery, a couple of position sensors, and voila!

Perhaps:

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They've got a bunch of higher end stuff too.

Reply to
Robert Wessel

Hmm. Sparkfun seems to have a 3/4" one. Chinese yeah, but they're at least willing to claim RoHS on it.

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--
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com 
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.
Reply to
Rob Gaddi

One of the smaller Asco valves comes in both "vanilla" and "NSF" versions. As far as I could see from reading the specs, the difference was a different material used in an O-ring that contacted the fluid. If you can re-use all the tooling and just make a material change to gain certification, why not?

I'm not sure. I bet there's a way to figure it, I just don't know what it is. Or, buy one of each, build a manifold that is reasonably likely to deliver about the same pressure to each valve, open the valves, turn on the water, and see which one fills a 5 gallon bucket the fastest.

What is the end goal here? Are you trying to stop people from "stealing" water, or are you making a "water breaker box" that shuts off the line to a particular fixture if a pipe breaks? If it's the latter, consider the effect on the system leak probability that all these extra valves and flow sensors will have...

Matt Roberds

Reply to
mroberds

Sure, makes sense! But, why not make *both* versions NSF? (what's the downside of that O-ring substitution? Is it made of Unobtanium? Does it have a greatly reduced service life? Does it restrict the device to lower temperature applications? etc.)

And, why can't the same sort of design be scaled up to 3/4"? (I imagine the larger valves are piloted)

Yeah, but would you be able to declare that as a Truth? Something that others would be able to reproduce? Or, did you just get lucky??

No. There are a couple of different goals behind the valves usage.

In some cases, the valve is intended to be used to gate the flow off to keep water out of the "load". E.g., like a shutoff for washing machine/dryer (you want to make sure there is no water pressure in the flexible hoses that connect the appliances to the water supply when there is no *need* for that water to be supplied -- so a hose doesn't rupture and flood the house!).

In some cases, the valve is intended to allow the flow to be enabled on demand. E.g., dispense water from the kitchen sink.

These are the sorts of typical uses you would expect from a valve/stop.

In *other* cases, the stop is a cheap way to monitor water use. I.e., putting flow meters on every possible place where water could be "consumed" is outrageously expensive. (and, only lets you *measure* flow; it gives you no *control* over that flow!)

[For example, if I installed a flow meter in the line to the washing machine, I could *tell* if the hose had ruptured... but, I couldn't *do* anything about it! (except alert someone who is HOPEFULLY nearby!]

Instead, if I can "precisely" (for suitable values of "precisely") monitor water flow rates AT THE MAIN (or, some small number of points that feed many "consumption points" *and* I can interrupt those consumption points on demand, then I can *infer* (with some variable level of certainty) where the water is being consumed. And, from that, make some assumptions about the likely activity involved.

E.g., at 3AM, chances are, there is no "normal" water consumption in a particular environment. So, if I *see* water being consumed (because I am continuously watching the flow meter on the main), I have to wonder *why*.

- Has a supply line to a toilet ruptured?

- Is a toilet "running on"?

- Is the refrigerator making ice?

- Did someone get up to take a pee? Get something to drink?? etc. Based on the rate, duration and volume, I can make some guesses and then explore those guesses -- by *closing* valves and seeing what effects this has on instantaneous water flow.

E.g., if "1.6 gallons" of water flow in a ~10 second interval AND THEN STOP, someone probably flushed a toilet (of course, they could also have washed a dish, filled a jug of water, washed their hands, etc.).

OTOH, if only a pint of water is consumed in a few seconds, it's probably the icemaker in the refrigerator.

Or, if the water is consumed at a different rate or for a longer period, it's probably *not* a toilet flush -- though it could be a toilet that is "running on", ruptured flex line, etc. Try interrupting the flow of water to the toilets and see if this affects the rate that water flows. If the water is running for a LONG time, maybe interrupt the flow to the sinks (since a sink rarely uses water for long periods -- maybe it's the shower?)

Has the water softener broken and is now overfilling the brine tank? Has the water heater started to leak? etc.

Again, I can't be 100% sure of many of these deductions (ABSENT any constraints on other things happening at the time) but it gives me some knowledge *and* a means of protecting against those sorts of losses even if my deductions are wrong! ("No, the hot water heater was not leaking. Instead, someone left a faucet open intentionally to safeguard against frozen pipes, etc.")

That's why the valves have to be "sort of" fast. I have to be able to see their actions "upstream" with limited resolution from the monitoring station.

Make sense?

--don

Reply to
Don Y

I don't know myself, but i do know people who do know. Could you provide me with a bit more information so i can at least point you to to the right vendors?

?-)

Reply to
josephkk

Sure, makes sense! But, why not make *both* versions NSF? (what's the downside of that O-ring substitution? Is it made of Unobtanium? Does it have a greatly reduced service life? Does it restrict the device to lower temperature applications? etc.)

And, why can't the same sort of design be scaled up to 3/4"? (I imagine the larger valves are piloted)

Yeah, but would you be able to declare that as a Truth? Something that others would be able to reproduce? Or, did you just get lucky??

No. There are a couple of different goals behind the valves usage.

In some cases, the valve is intended to be used to gate the flow off to keep water out of the "load". E.g., like a shutoff for washing machine/dryer (you want to make sure there is no water pressure in the flexible hoses that connect the appliances to the water supply when there is no *need* for that water to be supplied -- so a hose doesn't rupture and flood the house!).

In some cases, the valve is intended to allow the flow to be enabled on demand. E.g., dispense water from the kitchen sink.

These are the sorts of typical uses you would expect from a valve/stop.

In *other* cases, the stop is a cheap way to monitor water use. I.e., putting flow meters on every possible place where water could be "consumed" is outrageously expensive. (and, only lets you *measure* flow; it gives you no *control* over that flow!)

[For example, if I installed a flow meter in the line to the washing machine, I could *tell* if the hose had ruptured... but, I couldn't *do* anything about it! (except alert someone who is HOPEFULLY nearby!]

Instead, if I can "precisely" (for suitable values of "precisely") monitor water flow rates AT THE MAIN (or, some small number of points that feed many "consumption points" *and* I can interrupt those consumption points on demand, then I can *infer* (with some variable level of certainty) where the water is being consumed. And, from that, make some assumptions about the likely activity involved.

E.g., at 3AM, chances are, there is no "normal" water consumption in a particular environment. So, if I *see* water being consumed (because I am continuously watching the flow meter on the main), I have to wonder *why*.

- Has a supply line to a toilet ruptured?

- Is a toilet "running on"?

- Is the refrigerator making ice?

- Did someone get up to take a pee? Get something to drink?? etc. Based on the rate, duration and volume, I can make some guesses and then explore those guesses -- by *closing* valves and seeing what effects this has on instantaneous water flow.

E.g., if "1.6 gallons" of water flow in a ~10 second interval AND THEN STOP, someone probably flushed a toilet (of course, they could also have washed a dish, filled a jug of water, washed their hands, etc.).

OTOH, if only a pint of water is consumed in a few seconds, it's probably the icemaker in the refrigerator.

Or, if the water is consumed at a different rate or for a longer period, it's probably *not* a toilet flush -- though it could be a toilet that is "running on", ruptured flex line, etc. Try interrupting the flow of water to the toilets and see if this affects the rate that water flows. If the water is running for a LONG time, maybe interrupt the flow to the sinks (since a sink rarely uses water for long periods -- maybe it's the shower?)

Has the water softener broken and is now overfilling the brine tank? Has the water heater started to leak? etc.

Again, I can't be 100% sure of many of these deductions (ABSENT any constraints on other things happening at the time) but it gives me some knowledge *and* a means of protecting against those sorts of losses even if my deductions are wrong! ("No, the hot water heater was not leaking. Instead, someone left a faucet open intentionally to safeguard against frozen pipes, etc.")

That's why the valves have to be "sort of" fast. I have to be able to see their actions "upstream" with limited resolution from the monitoring station.

Make sense?

--don

Reply to
Don Y

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