I was. It was a great, expensive technical accomplishment that served no purpose at all, other than pork for Lyndon and his buddies.
For the not-yet-totalled-up cost of the ISS, you could feed the hungry of the world for roughly two years and built a few hundred world-class telescopes, too. What could be sillier than spending a trillion dollars putting a few people in a can where they have nothing to do?
The mess in Iraq *might* have a positive long-term outcome (history is notoriously chaotic about such things) but manned spaceflight doesn't look a bit useful to me.
In the mid-1980's I had a buddy who worked for Republic Airlines - he was a "Simulator Engineer". He worked mid-shift, i.e., midnight to 8 AM, and had the DC-9 simulator to himself for his whole shift. So, he'd invite friends over to fly the simulator. It's KEWL! It's the great big box on the six 8-foot hydraulic struts in the middle of a big empty two-story room, with a catwalk to get onto it - you've all seen pictures
This is the same principle:
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- they retract the catwalk when you get in, and there's this box with a full-on DC-9 cockpit, and big CRTs outside the windows, to simulate MSP at night. And it is incredibly realistic - you actually feel all of the accelerations, and so on. When you take off, it slams you back in your seat, just like in a real airplane, and it keeps doing it! (apparently, they also tilt the thing to simulate the gee forces).
The entire thing was run by some TI processor with 64K - that's 65,536 bytes - of memory.
Yup. A pretty graphic example of the devil being in the details. (Not that this was a detail... it was a major change.)
I shudder to think what things would have been like if the Apollo 1 fire hadn't forced a redesign and a full safety review. That first version of the craft was a mess, by all accounts I've read (and I've read a lot ;)).
Steve (who has an Apollo CSM model on his desk...)
By establishing self-sufficient bases on other worlds, eventually it can improve the odds of the species surviving, even though it may seem an expensive, dangerous and generally senseless activity. Sort of like sex.
Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
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"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
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Right. I think about that story every time I sign an engineering change notice or approve a new part. (We have spec management software that notifies all engineering project leads when a part that's used in their product is being modified by someone else. People are always trying to add second sources, cost-down products, and so forth. It's a never-endingly nerve-wracking thing to look at these unknown specs coming in and decide if they will work perfectly in everything I'm responsible for...)
(repost) Normally yes in did (those are tested) ... but with 100s of assumptions. But how abt those devices and there s/w (pacemakers and car) which were on earth (in front of system designers ) and lot of chances to have tested. (even in integrated case rather than individual part). I think wht one more thing required is long vision. Does any one have error per million operations ? I think software engineers have (many times) higher rate than those people.
Spending the same trillion dollars feeding people so that they can become energetic enough to have offspring and outbreed this new temporary food supply, and/or feeding militias so they regain enough strength to resume whatever pointless feud they're currently acting out.
Suggest spending a trillion dollars on ridiculous societal band-aids (like temporary free food) and all the greenies and rampant liberals applaud like maniacs. Suggest spending a tenth of that amount on, say, free contraceptives and air delivery of the same, and wars break out. Suggest spending the same tenth on, say, army intervention to disarm all the militias in the affected areas so the denizens can get back to growing their own food and minding their own business, and EVERYBODY screams.
It has always been, and will always be, significantly more useful than misguided social programs that contribute to increasing the population of the planet. I realize breeding is the canonical metric of species success, but it's also a danger to species survival.
Longterm species success means locating and adapting to new habitats. There are not many worthwhile habitats left to explore on this planet. Manned spaceflight is the only answer.
There is a hump to be got over, in education, civilization, and nutrition. Over half the world has done it, and it might be possible for the rest. Trying to get the poorest countries out of misery is a better investment than putting a few guys into a useless, leaky, smelly, dangerous low-orbit space station.
How can beeeding threaten species survival? Will the population increase until, one Tuesday afternoon, every single human on the planet sumultaneously drops dead?
There's nowhere to go, and not 1% of the resources available to get 1% of the population there if there was a worthwhile destination. Mars is the only candidate, and a miserable one at that.
Heh - no. I was 12 in '69. I meant "proud" in the most general sense - proud of my species. And proud of you guys for having the vision to do something that momentous.
Errr... invading Iraq, for instance?
Re costs: the figures I've seen for the ISS range from around $25 billion (for the US) through to around $100 billion (worldwide), total. The total spent by the US on Iraq stands at around $300 billion and is expected to head towards $2 trillion.
You're way more of an optimist than I am, then, John ;). The damage done (not least to the US's reputation) is immense. Imagine if that $1-2 trillion had been spent on aid, infrastructure, and education... and the effect that would have had on the world, not just Iraq. If the US had demonstrated its wisdom and its compassion, rather than its military might... Ah well. An opportunity to neutralise terrorism by starving it of support not just lost, but utterly, totally, screwed.
Ah - perhaps I'm more of an optimistic than you, then ;). I happen to think it's a learning process - and that includes learning about the difficulties and the costs. Don't forget, also, that that $25 billion wasn't just squirted into space - it was largely used to employ a lot of people.
What I *would* argue was a waste was the abrupt end of the Apollo era - all those skills and crafts were just let go... after your government had spent around $25 billion again (£135 billion by 2005 standards - ref
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) developing those skills, and earning the respect and admiration of the world in the process.
Well apart from anything else, Apollo (esp. the Apollo/Soyuz missions) played a significant part in unifying our species and helping bring about a gradual end to the insane standoff of the 50s and 60s. Money well spent, I'd say. In contrast, Iraq looks like costing 100 times more, and is having exactly the opposite effect.
For me, I'd say that one picture of Earthrise, taken from Apollo 8, was worth the entire cost alone. We finally realised how beautiful and fragile this planet is...
steve, are you nutz? It ain't that hard. I know by the sound of the saw blade and the smells if the cut i am making can take more feed or if i have to back off. I also know rather a bit about winding the motor (having rewound a few), and at least some things about refining, mining, and prospecting for copper and iron for the cores. Others do a better job than i at the each of collateral / antecedant tasks, and they are welcome to it. ignorance is it's own punishment.
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JosephKK
Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens.
--Schiller
Yes, that's true - at the moment. The Moon was a baby step compared to Mars, let alone other solar systems. With current technology, there is little prospect of terraforming Mars, or finding other reachable Earth-like planets.
But I don't believe this means we should give up. Rather, we should use our resources wisely, and continue learning. By and large, I think that's what we're doing. Yes, there's been waste... but hey, we're a wasteful species.
Wernher von Braun always wanted to do something like the ISS *before* going for the Moon - to build a space-going technology organically, if you will, one step at a time, sustainably. In some respects it's a shame that, due to the exigencies of the US/USSR space race, we went for the Moon before establishing such a technology - once we'd done that, interest waned, budgets were cut, the Apollo missions were curtailed, and the plans for e.g. the Saturn V were simply thrown away... So we're now having, in some senses, to start over.
And to put things in perspective: manned flight is one hundred years old. Civilisation is a few thousand years old. Humanity is under one hundred thousand years old. We have a few billion years ahead of us, and we're already concerned about resources, population, expansion etc etc. What else should we do? Sit around waiting for ET to phone us?
Hell, i won't stop you, i know better. But Raychem might try, with invalid patents on over 60 year old technologies (the "disputable" patent's might be recent, though).
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JosephKK
Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens.
--Schiller
Exactly. Besides, there are many places on Earth that are far more hospitable and are still not colonized. Such as Antarctica, the ocean floor etc etc. Its not worth the effort to go and live there. Why would it make sense to live on Mars? Maybe in 50-100 years. Probably not even then.
I'd rather see a large telescope either in orbit or a big radio telescope on the moon. It'd probably cost less than ISS and actually contribute to science.
How about space elevator?
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Siol
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