a hobby class on microcontrollers

It may be a cultural difference.

But your mistake in the above is that you are assuming the students are "planning to spend significant time learning a new hobby."

Jon

How many classes are they going to, and how long are these classes?

If you are only talking about a few hours total, then presumably the kits are not "consumables" but will be used in class. Avoid anything involving solder or permanent changes to the kits, and they will be re-usable from group to group. That way you can afford more per kit since it will be used by more people.

Also consider sharing kits amongst pairs or groups of students. It could make the class more fun, and again give you a higher budget per kit.

That's quite decent for many purposes.

It's a nice feature to play with.

Depending on what I can find, that might help some.

...

I think you've suggested a great option that I think I'd like to explore more. If you don't mind, I'd like to buy a couple of them and try them out. I want _options_ for the class, not a limited one-horse deal, so this may help expand choices a lot for the students... depending on what their interests are. Thanks for the suggestion!

Jon

Am 29.06.2010 01:43, schrieb Gary Peek:

It's an advantage only if you can get the chips you need in that format. Which basically you can't anymore, for just about any of the interesting chips, because nobody is making them any more. And if they do, they cost extra just for being in that form factor.

I'd even point out that making the CPU too easy to exchange is a pedagocically bad idea. The extra work to exchange a soldered-in CPU (fingers occasionally burned on the soldering iron included) motivates students to _think_ --- and do to it _before_ they connect stuff to a part that'll take an hour to replace before they can go on.

Socketed parts are necessary only if they have to be dismounted as part of regular operation (e.g. to burn code into them off-board). In most other situations, they indirectly teach carelessness.

Am 29.06.2010 02:12, schrieb Jon Kirwan:

It is what you wrote, though. You'll have to forgive me for believing you meant what you wrote.

As I just pointed out in another reply, a socket may not be as good an idea as it appears at first sight. It encourages sloppiness.

And it AFAIK it never was. DIL/DIP ICs never had bigger spacing than 0.1".

If I knew that now, I'd already have a curriculum set up and I'd be in full mind of the target interest groups and their needs and interests. I'm still wrestling over what I can manage to deliver and what interests there may be for it and each depends upon the other in complex ways.

Some of what you say, and others say, may influence what my first attempts look like, as well.

So I'm not yet sure. Also, I need to "raise a flag and see who salutes" it, too. This is a work in progress, of course, and will reflect my available time and interests as much as those of others.

A possible target is high school students in an hour long after school event that takes place one night each week during the school year, excepting holidays. I have a willing school and a few teachers, but it's entirely up to me and the students I meet next year what it will wind up looking like. Or even if it lasts long.

Another might be a community college class, not for credit but for those wishing to explore their own interests. They may not have any idea at all if they will like to continue, but would be willing to give it a go. In that case, I'd probably start this out as a short summer course and see if there is interest in something a little longer lasting.

Summer classes for a local community college here vary quite a bit in length... from two 1-hr classes total for a class on solar power for homes to something like four 2-hr classes for "urban gardening." I still don't know what fit I want, yet. So I'm not sure what my first shot at this will be like.

If there is more interest in a community class, perhaps the usual 'term length' might then be in order. If so, then it could be 10 weeks, 1 day a week, 1 or 2 hours depending on what I hear and how far some feel willing and able to go. If it gets much beyond that, I'd ask the college to help me turn it into something more substantial. But I don't expect that to happen.

Another might be residence homes for elder care. There are quite a few interesting classes held at such places, already, and some aspects may present interesting fare.

There is already a serious robotics club in the area, which I do NOT expect nor want to replace. They are good folks, know a lot, and are helpful. But one really does need to have some tenacity and skill to make the most of it. And it can be a bit scary to some folks because the path isn't smooth and the goals are engaging and may be too much to reach for, too quickly, for a lot of people who haven't ever tried their hand at this.

Keep in mind my thoughts about pottery class. Some folks in the class (like me) had no clue at all even if they would like it or want to try a class ever again. Some leave, halfway through. Most stick it out, make a few things, then never come back again. Some get to be pretty professional and come back again and again, eventually drifting away towards more professional or serious hobby groups when they feel right.

And very important: the class length will depend on the target. 15 year olds have significantly shorter attention spans than older adults, for example. I'll adjust, as needed.

Actually, I'm writing far more than I know about, above. Most is just guess, right now. I need to get serious in developing a programming tool (BASIC like and perhaps with semantics that XMOS' XC suggests, not sure yet) and see how that pans out in some trials. I have a few target students in mind to test things out on. If that goes okay, then I will make presentations to local high schools, colleges, and senior residence centers and anyone else who shows an interest and see what happens.

But the real value is my own excitement and fun which I hope will be infectious. This is about community and people and relationships as much as anything else.

Like a pottery class, I want the students to take what they've made home with them. I am not going to insist on that, of course. They are free to just tinker, too. But even though I took only one pottery course, I am very proud of what I made while I was there and I use some of them and keep others behind a glass door. I like to show them to others and laugh a little with them about my exploits, too. I hope to do a similar thing here. I would feel just a little bit bad, if I told them they couldn't keep what they worked on in class.

I don't know if you can understand that, since perhaps our cultures are different in that way, as well. But I can see this quite clearly.

I'm very glad you offered me your thinking about this and some ideas about an approach that you feel might improve situations. I may keep this in mind as everything develops. Mostly, the students will guide me. I will simply try to help them set their sights where it is achievable for each with their own skills and interests and then try and help them succeed in the end. I'll learn a lot from them in the process and modify what I'm thinking and doing based on that.

Jon

Yes, I'm aware.

Jon

Some (most, I think) probably will need to work on breadboards and use stripped jumpers to make connections. These use .1" spacings.

And I'm not sure neatness is my proper primary goal, anyway.

Jon

At this point, a $20 Arduino with the chip soldered into the socket covers all the requirements.

Mel.

I get it now. I should have looked it up!

In Jon's case I would think it to be an advantage, because it sounds like he wants a board so simple that it may have only the microcontroller on it.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: snipped-for-privacy@netfront.net ---

Hobbyist here. (At least when it comes to embedded work.)

I regard DIP as been cheap, but not because of the price of the component (which is usually a bit more expensive than it's alternatives in other form factors).

No, I regard DIP as been cheap because I can take the component and just place it in a breadboard and start experimenting with it. I don't have to make up a full PCB or adapter board before I can start using it.

If I had to make up a adapter board/PCB, I would have to either have the materials to hand or have it made up and wait for it to be delivered. Either way, I have to spend additional time and money before I could use the non-DIP component.

To Jon: Are you distinguishing between your students hardware and software capabilities ?

They may be less developed on the hardware side of things than they are on the software side of things or vice versa. It's certainly true for me; I still use DIP components on Veroboard, but can read (and understand) a datasheet and write drivers for devices without any problems at all. I've also, as a hobbyist, created a RTEMS BSP for a ARM board in the past as well.

I tell you this in order to have you think about the possibility that your potential students may be at different levels when it comes to hardware and software.

Simon.

We've taught some high school students before, most of it was like a cooking show on TV, you show them some basics, then pull out from underneath a table the completed system they could tinker with. A microprocessor controlled toy car was a big hit, we had all the routines written (turn left, turn right, forward, backward etc), they could call them as they wanted, it was just a bunch of jumps to subroutines. The ones that were really interested wrote their own code, others couldn't care less and just wanted to use the canned routines,everyone was happy.

Otherwise kids are used to cell phones, they won't be impressed by blinking LEDs projects.

Hello !

Since you are considering using Forth, I would suggest FlashForth for PIC18F and dsPIC30F. It is a interactive Forth system which compiles directly to Flash memory.

It is very hands on. You can define your own commands to try out what happens with whatever you have hanging of those PIC pins.

All the software tools are included on the PIC (native compiler, assembler, interpreter). You just need an (old) PC with a serial terminal and a text editor to create your own programs.

Cheers Mikael

Please do not force children to understand RPN at such a young age.

They will have problems with regular math forever after that.

The Logos people have it fairly right, look at the software they have for children.

The hardware is almost insignificant, get the software right and you will keep their interest.

Software that will get them running and some simple projects.

good luck

hamilton

I plan the case where both are poor, but will embrace those with better skills on either side and work with that. The plan is to work very hard to make everyone comfortable and satisfied that they succeeded in some fashion. But not to expect them to necessarily want to continue afterwards. I just want it to be fun; a tiny bit challenging but not beyond their own limits. And where they get to take home something they can show others and laugh about or feel kind of proud of having worked on. A tangible take-away is important, I think.

Yes. And my comment about not letting them get near a soldering iron probably holds. I don't want to have to worry about burns. Probably use solderless breadboards for the most part.

And me. I've had a job in my long since past doing soldering as a job -- my first 'real' and regular job, in fact. But I've never been exceptional at it. I'm still mostly a wire wrap type, though I'm just starting to get the hang of layout and making libraries of part footprints and getting a board done.

Yes, I'm there with you. I can read and understand many schematics, as well. I can even produce a small number of modest ones. But I've never sold a single hour of my time for that purpose. And I never will try to.

Thanks, Simon.

Jon

I'm not expecting a lot. In fact, I consider it a blistering success if just one high school student in three years of time "gets it" and then applies themselves significantly later.

I've been in high school as a volunteer trying to develop mathematics and physics, as those are my real loves in life, and struggled here a lot. Hodographs were a success in one case I remember. And everything else was worth it just to reach this one individual.

I have already limited my expectations here. But I don't really care. If I can reach one, I'm good. Two and I will probably just float around the world in a daze of goodness. More and I will start getting the story into newspapers!

Cripes, haven't I heard that one? One kid I talked with recently, when I asked him what kind of project might motivate him just a little, said he'd like to program his Nintendo DS for a new game. The darned thing has shared memory, an ARM7, and ARM9, and a few somewhat complex peripherals to manage. I knew instantly that no kid would be able to take such a giant step, especially as their first.

Sights way, way too high. Must take baby steps, first. My job is to try and make those first steps enough fun, and no more, to maybe get one or two to take a second step next.

Jon

Thanks, Mikael. I am only cracking open the door on this one. I've used Forth a very long time ago, never had a single client ever ask me if I knew Forth let alone ask me to work a project in it, but I want to keep a good choice in my back pocket here just in case it happens to fit some student project I encounter. I certainly don't want to miss any opportunity. So thanks for the suggestion and I will take a look at it and see what I think about it!

My expectation, though, is that it won't come up and I won't use it... except maybe in one unlikely case or two. But it is worth having a good option here just in case.

Jon

Sorry, it's 1K sram and eeprom. The chip is available for $3 and unassembled kit for $6. Fully assembled and tested for $9. Cable included.

Datasheet is here:

This chip is for building USB devices. There are sample firmwares for Keyboard, Mouse, CDC, etc.

I'll put some up for sale on ebay over the next few days.

So this is the ATmega32U2? With 32kb flash, 1kb sram, and

Actually, that might help me for some of my own tinkering.

Thanks. I'll look for something along these lines, then. Expect an order for at least two from me. Then comes the longer work ahead to make some use of them and try them out.

One of the things that I know I will need to supply to a few students is a BASIC that supports floating point. I am still not sure if that is what I want to do for total beginners. But I can easily see students coming back for more perhaps wanting to expand their own skills and wanting to do some work that might be a lot easier to teach if I had floating point support available. Having 32k flash solves the technical problem fielding a decent FP capable device.

Jon