Transducer Directly Outputs Something Halfway Between Displacement & Velocity

This particular output is already possible -- the units would be meter/ second^1/2 -- simply by taking the -1/2 order derivative of a speedometer or by taking the +1/2 order derivative of the output of a displacement transducer.

The question here is, can you build a transducer that outputs this quantity directly?

A half-way-between-charge-and-current sensor may also be possible.

Supposing partial transducers turned out to be cheaper, had better linearity or were enough smaller so that it was cost effective to replace conventional sensors with even with the additional necessary step of taking fractional derivatives or fractional anti-derivatives?

Bret Cahill

Reply to
Bret Cahill
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Reply to
Jeff Johnson

Why would you want such a sensor?

Reply to
CWatters

Computation costs have dropped to nothing yet many conventional "integer order" transducers seem to be resistant to price drops. There might be some opportunities to calculate around a sensor that wouldn't ordinarily be considered because it only put out a quantity that wasn't easy to recognize.

Exploiting cheap data processing to enhance transducer output isn't new. When the repeatability error is less than the linearity it's cheap and easy to include a calibration chart for the entire range, 0 to full scale. For load cells the accuracy can improve as much as an order of magnitude.

Fractional derivatives aren't the same kind of "linearity" but there may be some effects out there that might be worth a second look.

The simple offset block capacitor filter is actually putting out a fractional derivative. It's unlikely that's the only situation in nature where a device putting out fractional derivative is very cheap and very effective.

It seems plausible that other cheap simple devices putting out fractional derivatives could also be highly accurate transducers once it undergoes the right processing.

A displacement-velocity example isn't the best but it may help explain the goal. If displacements are measured with a variable inductor and velocities with a magnet in a coil, maybe replacing the variable inductor bar with a magnet might output something that could be processed into something useful.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill's thread about transducers motivated me to write this article.

Science attempts to determine the quantity of orthogonal properties at points.

For example, one might want to know the three dimensional stresses and strains on a jet engine, and the angular velocity and temperature of the engine.

Historically science and engineering have tried to focus transducers on one property by compensating or "zeroing out" the affects of properties other than the one the observer is trying to correlate with something. ( Failure, noise, vibration, etc.)

I suggest that the best way to find out what is going on at a point, is to attach a transmitter at the point, that transmits a quasi-random code that identifies the point, like the codes used to identify cell phones GPS satellites, migrating birds, etc.

and to modulate the data portion of the signal with orthogonal signals output from a "multiducer", a device sensitive to various properties in the environment,

and develop sophisticated software to separate out the various property components in the signal, much like medical imaging software.

The "multiducer" could be something like a quartz crystal or even a living thing like a bug, or even a more complex animal that has been conditioned to respond to certain environmental conditions.

For example, during WWII, the Germans trained pigeons to peck at a"joystick" to center aerial pictures of places in London, with the intension of using the pigeons as control mechanisms for rocket bombs.

An animal is not only hardwired as a "multiducer" for many properties, (Such as temperature, noise, oxygen level, vibration, etc.) it can be conditioned to identify other properties such as X, Y and Z (Size of the picture), orientation, etc.

For example, you could load a pig, dog, etc. with a WMD, and have it find a Wal-Mart, and to activate it's "payload".

Observe that a "navigatible" "multiducer" could not only transmit information based on it's hard wiring and conditioning (Programming) it could be steered to minimize or maximize various environmental conditions. ( It could approach or avoid noise, temperature, Wal-Mart, etc.)

Come to think of it, the Mass Media and search engines like Google are already "programming" dumb animals to serve as carriers and activators of WMDs,

and things like WWI, WWII, the Spanish Civil War, the Iraqi War, America's Urban Rebellion the various revolutions such as the ongoing ones, General Relativity, etc.

--
Tom Potter
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Reply to
Tom Potter

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine that no matter how well it might have worked, there would have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

Best regards,

Bob Masta DAQARTA v6.00 Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis

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Reply to
Bob Masta

Do you have a citation for this? To the best of my knowlege, the pigeon-as-guidance system was devised by B.F Skinner in the USA. It was never deployed. (I can imagine that no matter how well it might have worked, there would have been a natural reluctance to entrust bomb targeting to birds. Nobody in authority would have wanted to risk the consequences to his career in event of a fiasco.)

Best regards,

Bob Masta

DAQARTA v6.00 Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis

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Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter Frequency Counter, FREE Signal Generator Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI Science with your sound card!

Just more folklore Bob, just like the RAF eating bilberries for better night vision. If I'm wrong show me and I will apologize.

Tom

Reply to
Tom Biasi

In the article I saw on edjamacaishunal teevee, they were using them to find downed airmen on the ocean. I have no idea how to verify or refute that - wait a sec.... yeah, google's got nothing. Oh, well!

Cheers!@ Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

Not sure which you are referring to as folklore. I have found nothing regarding a German program, so that doesn't seem to have made the cut as folklore. The Skinner program is well known. Since he was such a famous (infamous?) scientist, whose later work in behaviorism made him the target of every wing nut in Congress, I expect that this part of his history has been pretty well scrutinized by now.

Best regards,

Bob Masta DAQARTA v6.00 Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis

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Reply to
Bob Masta

Stress on an ecosystem may result in a resolution as good or better that any other difference measurement tactic such as a Wheatstone bridge.

For a possible example, ocean acidification may not be directly good for any critter but it may harm some more than others. If a mussel shell becomes easier to crush there could be a boom then bust in the crab population. That would make more sense than warmer Antarctic waters attracting crabs for the first time in 40 million years. The ocean has been warmer many times over that time period but the pH hasn't been this low in 30 million years.

Another high resolution indicator of increases in ocean levels would be to monitor the frequency that roads on the Outer Banks become covered with sand. There is no geological reason for the an area 4 times the size of Mecklenburg County to be less than 3 feet above sea level. The only possible explanation is that there is some equilibrium with the sea level. If the ocean doesn't rise at too fast a rate the Outer Banks may try to keep up with it -- except for U.S.

  1. If that road doesn't sink much, it should become covered with sand more often. The roads at the extreme northern end in SE Va. are swept about 4 times a year. Everything else being equal, if the sweeping increases then the theory that Outer Banks may survive climate change may have some validity.

Bret Cahill

Reply to
Bret Cahill

Not sure which you are referring to as folklore. I have found nothing regarding a German program, so that doesn't seem to have made the cut as folklore. The Skinner program is well known. Since he was such a famous (infamous?) scientist, whose later work in behaviorism made him the target of every wing nut in Congress, I expect that this part of his history has been pretty well scrutinized by now.

Best regards,

Bob Masta

It's mentioned quite a lot, here is one article.

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Tom

Reply to
Tom Biasi

I couldn't find anything in that reference about *Germans* training pigeons to guide bombs or missiles, but on page 37 there is a mention of the B.F. Skinner program... he was definitely not working for the Germans!

Best regards,

Bob Masta DAQARTA v6.00 Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis

formatting link
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter Frequency Counter, FREE Signal Generator Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI Science with your sound card!

Reply to
Bob Masta

I couldn't find anything in that reference about *Germans* training pigeons to guide bombs or missiles, but on page 37 there is a mention of the B.F. Skinner program... he was definitely not working for the Germans!

Best regards,

Bob Masta I'm not sure what part if any the Germans played in this but BF was involved. The idea really existed but was not actually done in practice.

Tom

Reply to
Tom Biasi

I have a distinct memory about reading an article in a controls magazine about 1960, about Germany's missile program that covered control systems in the missiles, magnetic amplifiers, the "pigeon control idea", etc.

but I could find no reference to Germany's experiments with using pigeon's to control the V1's and V2's,

so

I must have a glitch in my memory,

or

as the saying goes "History is written by the victors."

and as I say

"History is re written by people motivate by race and religion."

And considering that in the minds of the masses history is what is fed to them by the Mass Media, and by Google hits,

and considering that Google has a race/religion bias and "cooks the books" and feeds you what they want you to see, and hides what they don't want you to see, and censors folks who express facts and opinions that Google does not want the public exposed to,

I suggest that folks interested in facts, should NEVER click on "I'm feeling lucky."

Which is Google's way of determining when they have a mind under their control.

--
Tom Potter
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Reply to
Tom Potter

Reply to
Sam Wormley

I doubt that Antarctic waters conform to this overall acidification; tons of gravel-flour are scoured by the glaciers.

Reply to
rasterspace

Thanks to my pal Sammy for pointing out that I am honest and forthright.

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Tom Potter
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Reply to
Tom Potter

I doubt that your Pappy would agree, Potter.

Reply to
Sam Wormley

It appear to me that my pal Sam Wormley is suggesting that he has no "glitches" in his memory,

and I trust that he will explain why, when I first posted many years ago that General Relativity was a "Tower of Babel"

that he confused the ""Tower of Babel" with the "Towers of Hanoi".

Was that a "glitch" in Sammy's memory, or was he ignorant of the "Tower of Babel"?

Maybe Sammy will explain.

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Tom Potter
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Reply to
Tom Potter

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