ground wire

I am probably wrong about the article of Tomco. I guess what I am seeing in the article of Tomco is different from what all of you are seeing.

I see - the article says some thing like - the most common trouble is - the engine will not idle but it will run over idle. This is on the first page. I thought that means - the car will not have normal idle - the car will have high idle - the car will run more high than normal idle. It says the engine will run over idle. I was thinking if the engine is running over idle the engine is on and the car is on. I guess all of you think - the car does not turn on.

I do not have a camera - I can not put any of my pictures on the internet. I will try to find pictures on the internet that look a lot like my parts

- I will use links for all of you to see them.

My carburetor does not have a seal between the bottom of my carburetor and the car. I was thinking but I am probably wrong - the carburetor is connected to electric currents flying around the engine - the carburetor has a ground to the car - the fuel cut off solenoid is getting energy to open - my car turns on.

I am saying prayers for all of you. Thank you for any answers. I need help.

Kurt Stocklmeir

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Have you tried paying a mechanic who knows what he is doing ?>:-} ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions. 

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." 

"Long live impudence! It is my guardian angel in this world." 

"It is important to foster individuality, for only the individual 
can produce the new ideas." 

"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth." 

                              -Albert Einstein

kurtstocklmeir wrote on 6/24/2017 4:42 PM:

You are misinterpreting what you are reading. "The most common idle solenoid symptom is an engine that won't idle but will run above idle." This does not mean it is going to race at idle. It means it will run when you step on the gas, but *NOT* when idling.

Is your engine *really* racing at 6000 RPM at idle? If so, you have an entirely different problem like the throttle stuck open. You need to figure that out before you do anything else. Something is opening the throttle allowing the engine to race.

I am not interested in seeing stuff that might look like what you have. I want to see your connector to see if a wire is broken off or cut off even. I want to see your solenoid to see if it might get contact through its case. Any cell phone should have a camera built in these days, even the dumb phones like mine. I can take pictures and message them to my computer or use a USB or Bluetooth connection and transfer the photos to my PC.

I don't know what any of that means. Electric currents don't "fly around" an engine. The engine is grounded. I would be highly surprised if your carb doesn't have a gasket between it and the block. But it can still be grounded by the bolts. The question is does the solenoid have any sort of electrical contact with the carb that passes current? An ohm meter will tell you that, you can get one for $6.

Yes, you do. You need the sort of help that praying won't provide.

--

Rick C

LOL, Hey I had a 87 honda 1200cvcc. 12" rims, I could change those things in the back yard. Another thing I found out is if you turn off the ignition doing 55 for a few seconds, then turn it on, the fuel vaporized in the cat, then gathered in the muffler and ignited. Pretty impressive bang. You could push start the thing, it got 40mpg, and hydroplained @ 35mph in heavy rain.

Cheers

Martin Riddle wrote on 6/25/2017 12:25 AM:

Who needs hybrids?

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Rick C

Thank you for all answers.

When the guy took off my carburetor I did not see any seal. I could be wrong about the seal. The guy who put on my carburetor said some cars do not use seals for carburetors. The guy at the store who gave me my carburetor agreed with the guy who connected my carburetor to my car - some carburetors do not use seals. The guy who connected my carburetor to my car said that he thought my car does not use a seal. I plan to check this with a lot of stores that sell parts - I called 1 store - they said there is not any seal for my car in their computer. I checked stores on the internet for a seal - I do not see any seal for my car in their computer. If my car needs a seal this could make my car have a 6000 idle.

My idle is about 6000. I will not let the car run at that idle - I will turn off the car.

I looked at the fuel cut off solenoid before it was put on my carburetor. I have 2 of them - the old 1 and a new 1 from the factory. They are the same. I checked the springs of both of them - the springs work. I looked at the plastic connections of the wires from the fuel cut off solenoids - they are the same. There is not any wire on the plastic connections that connects to a ground - there is not any thing that can go to a ground - this is true for both of them. The people who made Hondas were good at what they did - I do not know what they did to make a ground for the fuel cut off solenoid. 2 wires are connected to the fuel cut off solenoid - only 1 wire can be connected to the car. I think all of you are right - the wire goes to the computer. I plan to look many times at the plastic connections. Because of what all of you said - I looked about 20 times at the plastic connection of my fuel cut off solenoid that I am not using - I do not see any thing that can be used for a ground.

It could be true the factory made a mistake and that is causing a high idle.

Kurt Stocklmeir.

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I will try to check the throttle. Kurt

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kurtstocklmeir wrote on 6/26/2017 4:23 PM:

I think you are doing a pretty good job for someone who knows little about cars. I want to make one point though in case it is not clear. No one would say you have a high idle. A high idle might be 1200 RPM or possibly even 1500 RPM, but 6000 RPM is a throttle stuck open.

When you look down the throat of the carb you will see a flat plate of metal in the shape of a disk mounted to a rod that allows the plate to rotate in the round opening of the carb. At idle this plate will be in a position that nearly the entire throttle opening will be blocked and only a very small amount of air will squeeze around it. If this is truly a carb and not fuel injection (or maybe this will be true for fuel injection as well), the idle is adjusted by a small screw that controls how much the throttle plate closes off the throttle opening. The screw can only change the opening a very small amount. When you step on the gas pedal the throttle opens much more allowing a lot more air to reach the engine.

There is no way the engine will run at 6000 RPM unless the throttle is being held open by something other than the idle adjustment or anything wrong with the idle circuit. Look for the throttle being held open. I think you get this now, but I just wanted to help make it clear. I can't think of anything the factory could do wrong with the carburetor that would allow the engine to idle at 6000 RPM. Unless the throttle is stuck open there would not be enough air flow to allow the engine to run that fast.

--

Rick C

Thank you Rick. You are right about a lot of things.

Both guys who have helped me are good at what they do. 1 guy has been a car mechanic for about 50 years. This is a mess that most mechanics can not fix.

A long time ago I called places that sell Hondas - I asked them things like can I buy a new carburetor and can they rebuild my carburetor. They do not sell carburetors, they do not have parts to rebuild carburetors and they do not have any people who work for them that know how to rebuild carburetors. I ran around for about 1 year trying to find people around Norfolk Va. to fix my carburetor. I live in Norfolk Va. It is not a small place. I could not find any people. I sent the carburetor to national carburetor in Florida. I can not even find a person who knows how to adjust a throttle on my carburetor. These carburetors are the worst carburetors. This is a carburetor but part of it is fuel injection. It is a carburetor and fuel injection at the same time. I do not want any person who does not know what they are doing to change any thing on the carburetor. The carburetor will not work if any little thing changes on it. The guy who put my carburetor on my car is a mechanic but he does not know how to tune it. I can not find any person around where I live who knows how to tune it.

I guess when air gets into the car the idle can increase a little. You are right - it would be extreme hard to get a 6000 idle because air is getting into the car. A lot of new hoses were put on my car when the carburetor was put on my car. I do not think air is getting in my car.

I guess if the wire of the fuel cut off solenoid is connected to my car and the car has a bad idle I will try to send the carburetor back to the factory. I am suppose to have a warranty for it. It could be true the factory made a mistake tuning it.

Kurt Stocklmeir

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I can't understand why the OP can't buy a shop manual. Having owned many old cars in my youth, shop manuals were easy to come by, though often a wee-bit expensive... the shop manual for my '61 Renault Dauphine cost me $20 (in 1963 dollars!) and I had to get it from a book-seller in London.

And I certainly don't buy the "no gasket needed" comment... that probably accounts fro his extreme 'idle' speed. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 

             I'm looking for work... see my website. 

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.

Jim Thompson wrote on 6/27/2017 4:50 PM:

I don't think so. I had a carb rebuilt once for a '63 Chevy II. They put it back on and I found when I worked the throttle gas would leak around the joint to the manifold. When I complained he explained that when the engine is running there is a partial vacuum in the manifold and the gas goes into the engine rather than running out the crack. The amount of air leaking in would be insignificant compared to what the engine was pumping. I had to agree.

Even if that was not intended, how the hell would that account for an "idle" of 6000 RPM??? To get that sort of speed would require a lot more air and more gas than a vacuum leak would allow. If the air isn't flowing through the carb it isn't going to pick up fuel.

Hell, carburetors are crude devices that barely work in many respects. The engines they are mounted on have to be pretty tolerant of all manner of inadequacies. That's one of several reasons why cars in the 60's ran so poorly and needed so much maintenance. But I guess I shouldn't go there. Don't want to start anything that will trash this poor guy's thread.

I just wish he would borrow a friend's camera or phone and give us some photos of what he has. I bet it is a very simple matter to figure out how to wire his solenoid... if it is a solenoid, lol. Don't chokes have electrical heaters sometimes? I seem to recall seeing a choke with a wire going to it. But then I can't remember the last time I actually looked at an auto carburetor.

--

Rick C

kurtstocklmeir wrote on 6/27/2017 4:20 PM:

I am no expert on fuel injection, but I think there is something called throttle body fuel injection which means there is a single injector on the throttle body (what you are calling the carburetor) which injects fuel in place of the main jet in the carburetor. Like I said, I don't know anything about this, but I'm guessing they still have an idle circuit to supply the tiny amount of fuel needed to idle and the fuel injection isn't used at idle, likely because there isn't enough air moving to assure the fuel will properly atomize.

So for your engine to be running at 6000 RPM, I'm pretty sure the throttle has to be at least partly open and the fuel injector has to be pumping some fuel.

I think I said this before, but all you need to do is look down the throttle of the carburetor and see if it is fully closed or if it is open even a bit. That will tell you if the throttle is being held open improperly. You don't even need the engine running to look. Can you do that? If the butterfly (the round disc that pivots to open the throttle) has a crack you could fit the thickness of a nickle into it is open too much. The butterfly needs to have a little clearance so it doesn't rub against the throttle walls, maybe the thickness of a dime.

BTW, I am presently at lake Anna about 80 miles from you. lol

--

Rick C

Thank you Rick. You are right.

The guy who put my carburetor on my car has been a mechanic for about 50 years.

The guy put my carburetor on my car. The idle was about 6000. When the guy saw my idle was high he knew the metal plate that lets air in a carburetor was letting a lot of air in my carburetor. He knew that was causing the high idle. The metal plate was not blocking any air. The guy used force to move the metal plate where it blocked a lot of air - the idle went to about 2000. When the guy stopped using force to move the metal plate the idle went to 6000 - the metal plate moved back to where it was before the guy made it move letting a lot of air get in the carburetor.

I will try to use words that a mechanic would use - the throttle is completely open.

Kurt

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Rick you may like this

Kurt Stocklmeir

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kurtstocklmeir wrote on 6/28/2017 5:29 PM:

That's all I need to hear... lol

So did you figure out why the throttle was wide open? Is it fixed now? I think you still need to figure out the solenoid wiring. If I understand, the car won't idle until the solenoid opens the fuel flow. I don't see the solenoid in the pictures on the page you link to in your other post. Also, these are pictures of carburetors, not fuel injection throttle bodies. Are these pictures like what you have?

--

Rick C

Rick the carburetor has a part associated with fuel injection - 2 experts told me this. The carburetor has a fuel cut off solenoid.

I do not know any thing about cars.

I need to find a person who knows how to connect the wire of the fuel cut off solenoid to the car. I guess the fuel cut off solenoid will be connected to a ground. If the wire gets connected to the car and if the carburetor does not work I guess I will tell the factory they made a mistake. This factory does make mistakes. Experts have told me this factory does make mistakes but the factory tends to do a good job. I guess because the carburetor is hard to rebuild it is simple to make a mistake.

Kurt Stocklmeir

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kurtstocklmeir wrote on 6/29/2017 5:55 PM:

Ok, the fuel injector is not important, it just takes the place of the main jets in a regular carburetor. But the images you recently provided links to are carburetors (the kind with jets as shown in the pictures), not fuel injected. So ignore those images.

All solenoids need TWO connections, ground and hot. Often the ground connection is switched but that requires two wires. Or the hot can be switched which means the solenoid can use the mounting for a ground and there is only one wire. An easy way to tell is to use an ohm meter. Again, this is much easier than trying to find an expert in a 30 year old car.

You can get a camera phone for $10 and upload some images to a PC by USB or bluetooth. Then you can put them on the web for us to see. That would be

*SO* easy compared to finding someone who knows about 1987 carburetors. The wiring is easy to see what is going on. We just need to see it.

--

Rick C

put the f"ing gasket in it!

idle speed is not iontrinsic to the engine is is set by limiting the closure of the throttle butterfly valve, this often done by a screw that acts on the sector pulley that receives the accelerator cable limiting how far it can close.

if you've got a vacuum leak the mixture will be too lean at the ideal setting so the trottle will need to be further opened to accomodate that fault.

having that solenoid disconnected also makes the mixture leaner at low flow rates same net result, engine won't idle until the thottle is opened further.

also hard to restat when warm.

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