250V plug wiring question

Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:51:43 GMT recorded as looks like snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) sounds like:

Because of the wire color. Possibly careless, but I don't think stupid. I think the stupidity would lie in not following the code to make sure that the proper wire and/or breaker was installed for the circuit in question. I had hoped you would have been able to form this idea for yourself, but I've given up waiting for that. So anyway, I don't accept your premise.

Except that you concede that point in a separate post. So, not so obvious, then?

Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 03:08:41 GMT recorded as looks like snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) sounds like:

Yes, indeed it does. If the code is followed, things like that don't happen.

Your grip on reality is a bit weak, there.

Do you?

Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:52:45 GMT recorded as looks like snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) sounds like:

OK, I did. Didn't find any such contention. How about you point it out?

In response to:

You said:

"...Code obviously did not prevent some fool from having wired the receptacle that way; there is no particular reason to suppose that proper color-coding would have done any better. Given that the outlet ALREADY EXISTS in that condition, it is not made any more, or less, hazardous by altering the colors of the wires that feed it...."

You are making a contention against a poster's recommendation to follow code. Thus, you have indeed made that argument.

Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 03:05:25 GMT recorded as looks like snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) sounds like:

I will accept that your failure to address my point is a concession.

So what??? It doesn't help the electrician who comes along sometime later and gets the crap kicked out of him by getting a shock from the "cold" colored wire.

Obviously you have not done any serious house wiring.

******************* You are wrong again. Taping the white wire with red or black tape would tell the next person in that it is a hot wire. It removes the shock hazard. *******************

IF FOLLOWED. There you go! You finally got it.

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

OF COURSE following Code prevents improper wiring. You continue to miss two important points:

1) Code, in and of itself, does not prevent improper wiring. FOLLOWING Code prevents improper wiring. 2) Correct color coding, in and of itself, does not remove the hazard.

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

IMO, being careless with electrical wiring *is* stupid. YMMV.

Agreed.

I have said absolutely nothing that would have caused a person with normal ability to comprehend written English to suppose that I had not "formed that idea for myself."

Except that I did *not* concede that in a separate post.

Clearly not obvious to you, at any rate.

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

You sure seem to be having a hard time grasping this concept.

Code *prohibits* people from doing things like that.

FOLLOWING Code *prevents* people from doing things like that.

Not MY grip. I have a very firm understanding of the difference between "prohibit" and "prevent", but you seem to think they are synonymous.

It's quite obvious that I do, since I continue to insist on the distinction. It is equally obvious that you do not.

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Then you didn't read carefully enough.

Don Bowey's first post in the thread -- referring to the 120V receptacle wired onto the 240V circuit -- says, in its entirey:

"If the white wire is to be used as a hot lead, US code requires that it be taped with black tape to alert workers that it it hot. Certainly that makes it less dangerous."

Manifestly, the danger remains, until the receptacle is removed, or the breaker rewired or replaced.

You certainly have some creative ways of interpreting plain, clear language to suit your own preconceptions. That is in no way a contention against a recommendation to follow the NEC. It is a clear statement of two clear facts that you have yet to grasp:

1) The NEC does not prevent stupid or dangerous wiring practices. It *prohibits* them. People who do not follow the NEC will do stupid things no matter what the Code says. 2) A 120V receptacle wired to the two hot legs of a 240V circuit is inherently dangerous, and color-coding the white wire of the circuit to indicate that it is hot does NOTHING to remove that danger. As long as the receptacle remains on that circuit, it is dangerous, regardless of the colors of the wires supplying it. >

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I will accept YOUR failure to address my point as a concession. You claimed that you "explicity addressed" the hazard posed by a 120V device wired onto a

240V circuit. I say you did not. By failing to refute that charge, you concede it.

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

True, but -- so what?? That's NOT the greatest danger here.

To the contrary, I've done quite a lot. It's apparent to me that you've never done any at all, since you completely fail to see what the REAL hazard is here.

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

You have completely missed the point.

A 120V receptacle wired across the two hot legs of a 240V circuit is an immediate and serious fire hazard because it will put 240V through any 120V device that is plugged into it.

This is a far greater danger than the hypothetical risk of a hypothetical shock to a hypothetical electrician who may someday touch the (hot) white wire.

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On 04 Jun 2007 14:00:16 -0400 in sci.electronics.basics, DJ Delorie wrote,

A friend of mine found one of those after buying a house. Former residents apparently did it to run a window air conditioner in the bedroom.

I bet that A/C didn't last long...

I wonder, though, if the outlet might not have been what your friend thought it was. Look at a NEMA plug and receptacle configuration chart, e.g.

htm#20%20Amp.

and note the similarities between the 5-20 (120V 20A) and 6-20 (240V 20A) configurations. People often mistake one for the other.

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 19:34:34 GMT in sci.electronics.basics, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote,

That could be a wrong guess about the air conditioner; I dunno, whatever was there was gone before I visited.

I saw the wiring, though, and helped fix some of it. It was a typical dual 15A household socket, NEMA 5-15R according to the chart, split with the top socket wired 240 and the bottom wired 120V. That crosses the line in my book. We found some scary stuff in the kitchen wiring too, but I don't remember the details there.

Ahh. I was picturing a single 6-20R or 5-20R in a faceplate with a round cutout.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Crosses the line in pretty much anybody's book. Wow. Amazing that anybody would be that stupid, but it happens.

I've always been mystified as to why people would monkey around with electricity without taking even the most elementary steps to understand what they're doing -- don't they realize it's dangerous?

I've seen plenty of weird and scary stuff too, like a medicine cabinet with built-in lights and receptacle -- lights controlled by the wall switch, receptacle hot all the time -- and fed by a single 14-2 BX cable.

Yes, 14-2.

Used the black wire as constant hot, white as switched hot, and the cable

*armor* as the neutral.

--
Regards,
        Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It\'s time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Circa Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:41:30 GMT recorded as looks like snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) sounds like:

I cannot rebut a point you do not state and defend. Nor does "you did nothing of the kind" suffice to rebut a properly stated point of argument.