What scope for beginner?

What is a beginner? To build that crystal radio you need no scope. To progran a PIC you need no scope. it is important that you can interpret what you see, even with a simple uA meter + series resistor, you do not need a multimeter either. Sure, you can feel a 9V battery on your tongue, if it is not empty you will know. And if it is empty you will know too (first try the full one for the difference).

Somebody here was building an analog scope, was it Tim? that is a good project for a bit more than a beginner, go for 10 MHz at a few dB down. With what you learn you know in the future what a scope is and how to use it. You can make your own digital too:

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Quite honestly I did NOT use a scope to write that code, or did I, yes, maybe I had the timebase out on a pin to see, but a simple frequency counter does that too:

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and you need no scope no build that.

I have build my own design scopes over the years, analog, and the last was was 300 MHz, never finished I went into other things at that time, but it worked, but never checked if it really was that fast, that was a Tek design V amplifier that somebody from Tek published in Radio Electronics, a Dutch magazine that no longer exists. (Thousands of years later I met the guy, he told me Tek was not happy he published that circuit diagram..) Anyways I used a cheap RFT (I think it was) East German CRT.

Did not cost much.

So, what is a beginner? What does such a creature do? Enlighten me!

Reply to
Jan Panteltje
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We have a couple of products that use a ZYNQ chip (FPGA and two ARM cores) to do realtime waveform generation. They run Linux, hardly an RTOS, but we have hard time budgets. One example is a "file demon" program that reads up to big eight waveform files simultaneously and must keep FPGA waveform FIFOs full at an average rate of a few megasamples per second.

We built a digital mux into the FPGA so we can select a signal to come out to a test BNC connector. We can see, on an oscilloscope, when the file demon is running. We can see writes to the FIFOs. We can quantify realtime Linux behavior. We can see how much margin we have and set specs accordingly.

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It's amazing how little people know about the realtime behavior of complex software, like Linux running on multiple CPUs. Can I run that code 10 times a second? Can I run it 5000 times a second? If I run a tight loop, how much will it be suspended by the OS? You've got to see and measure stuff like that, on an oscilloscope.

Someone who is interested in electronics but doesn't know much yet.

Build stuff and learn. Electronics is half qualitative and half quantitative, so he needs a good oscilloscope.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
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Reply to
John Larkin

On a sunny day (Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:31:06 -0700) it happened John Larkin wrote in :

I am old school, my first 'oscilloscope' was a 34 cm TV CRT with magnetic deflection, HV generated by a car ignition coil connected to a 4 Watt tube audio amp that I made oscillate, HV rectifier ran of a 1.5 V battery. Sure scared the .. out of the physics teacher in high school. We brought it to his lab in the last year hoping he would use it for physics demos, but no, it was too much..

I have this:

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That chip on the right, on the board with the ten-turns (;-) is a video digitizer, 32 MHz sampling. On the bottom board you can, on the right, just see the R2R video DAC. That is a Spartan II on a Digilentinc board, running at 200 MHz internal. I did TV system conversion that way, but for the life of me cannot remember how I did it, This picture is just some test locking to that Rubidium 10 MHz on the left.. No Linux, why use Linux?

Makes a great frequency counter too:

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I am not so sure, of course such a FPGA board is nice, I just bought that one long time ago out of curiosity and hardware brute force ideas of DES and Co. But as to Linux and processing power, This is, with the help of some hardware FIFO to skip task switching interrupts, DVB-S encoding in real time on a Raspberry:

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Most of the hardware could be in FPGA, and the glue logic. Just a few KB internal RAM is enough. The cheap Altera boards go for something like 35 $ on ebay too. Yours is more powerful, but I am a bit allergic to X software. But there are so many ways to skin a cat. But is this all for a beginner?

I started at age 4 ? don't remember exactly building a crystal radio, later tube radio, you learn how to work with zero budget..

Scope? You wish.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Quite. As a beginner I didn't even dream I could own a scope one day.

And now I'm learning how to do things even cheaper than I've ever done them before - with a budget of literally zero for everything. Yes, everything. A nail as a soldering iron etc.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

My first scope was a Heathkit. It was $60 or something. I was in the

5th or 6th grade, I think.

I used to buy Heathkit scopes, assemble them, and sell them at cost. I enjoyed building them and didn't think to make money.

Hey, here it is!

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Pretty horrible, actually.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
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Reply to
John Larkin

On a sunny day (Fri, 24 Apr 2015 15:35:12 -0700) it happened John Larkin wrote in :

That would be nice for a 'beginner'.

Well, it has possibility to directly drive the deflection plates, albeit with AC, Those anode resistors are a bit high, should work for audio tough.

Nothing wrong with the input attenuator.

I am sure with some work I could make it into a TV:

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Would need viewing in darkness.

Where I once lived the analog TV signal was so strong you could use a crystal detector on Ch 4 (about 65 MHz here), and just a 2 transistor amp for luminance.

Is that a MVB oscillator in the timebase? Cannot read where all the resistors go.

I have Trio CS1562A, looks a lot like this CS1560:

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Bought around 1981? for TV service. That makes 34 years with intensive use. Quite different from my Whirlpool washing machine that had the electronics break down just after guarantee.

The old days were better! That thing still works to 27 MHz (tested transmitter with it just few dB down).

Hopeful somebody will start selling cheap 300 MHz analog scopes. Just so what you see is what you have.

Else you may as well start selling simulations versus the real stuff, the Matrix comes to mind, plug it in the brain and you can (imagine) to have anything you want.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Sorry to say it, but all that old crap is going to scare beginners away.

The youngsters want something with a nice interface, born in the Apple generation (Steve Jobs was insane, but he did move the entire industry to better human interfaces to computers and instruments)

The cheapest equivalent Picoscope is 212 USD, the Rigol 329 USD. The beginner is going to have a lot more possibilities with those, just the FFT is something they can learn a lot from using

Cheers

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 Apr 2015 01:14:35 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Klaus Kragelund wrote in :

A CRT is a nice piece of physics. A clueless app mirror rubber will learn nothing, and never design anything. Not even write real software.

Job was not insane, he simple was one of the best salesman that ever lived that I know about. He hypnotized his customers to the point of selling less for more. Touch screens are anti-human interfaces that should be forbidden by law,. I have one, android, it is in the cupboard as it is useless for anything it claims to be.

Here is your scope with FFT for 15 $, that is including the PIC and programmer:

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I have several FFT programs for on the PC, there is octave, gnu plot, sound cards, what not.

Your view is an extremely limited one of the electronics world. You can have much fun at 100 MHz to 2.2 GHz frequencies with this spectrum analyzer:

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Although it is narrow band, for most beginners AND experts it is a great tool for a low price, say 35 $

Just going to the shop and buying a Tek or Rigol or whatsthename for a 'beginner' (see subject line) is as stupid as giving a Ferrari to a juvenile to crash.

If you are one of those who have no real background in electronics than that promises nothing for the future. No matter what tools you have.

Best thing for a beginner is a good book on electronics, a soldering iron, and building some simple stuff. Without some theory nothing can be understood. Build your own test equipment is next. Adapted to your needs (what you build). F*ck do you REALLY think that a 'beginner' with a 100 MHz scope will gain understanding from probing some modern digital TV or that Apple thingy? He cannot even see the chips so small are things these days,

Education (for electronics and many other things if not all other things) comes cheap and in high quality from google. Type or ask anything you want. But to see the difference between crap and good stuff you will still need some background very basic knowledge, This is especially so on Usenet. So if you are 6 or so years old and read this... beginner by definition, most cannot read a lot before that I suppose... No money for 50$ books, go to a library, that is what I did as a kid. They would not lend me the books until my mother got some waver. After that I really messed up one by putting ink on it with a leaking fountain pen that I used to copy diagrams. The scope would have been dead. Most things I took apart just to see how it worked. and stop at nothing.

:-)

Keep sober. It helps.

Reply to
Graf Itty

in

I

it with AC,

crystal detector

.

nics break down just after guarantee.

dB down).

the Matrix comes to mind,

g.

Yes, but if the beginner is into embedded stuff also, which I think is a go od mix (HW and SW interoperability), then he's is going nowhere with a anal og scope, which you cannot use below 10Hz.

eneration (Steve Jobs was insane, but he did move the

d that I know about.

He hypnotized people, yes. A good salesman - the best, yes. But he had mani c depressive traits, one day cheerful, the next in rock bottom. He would cr y if he did not get his way. It was all black and white for him, if the eng ineers had critical comments, he didn't listen, although he should have at times. The MacIntosh was a great example

it claims to be.

You need to enter this millennium. Ever heard of a Smart phone?

inner is going to have a lot more possibilities with

ammer:

nd cards, what not.

That's not useful for any real work. I did a simelar thing with a PSoC some yers ago, but it was just for fun, never used it for anything that mattere d

m analyzer:

tool for a low price, say 35 $

That is really cool. I respect that, you dig out some great stuff from time to time :-)

eginner' (see subject line)

Depends if the beginner knows he/her is going for the long haul, then you m ight as well spend the bucks to get started right

hat promises nothing for the future.

Cant argue with that

, and building some simple stuff.

understanding from probing some modern

e things these days,

No, I expect the beginner to read the relevant book, trawl the internet for interesting stuff and decide for a relevant project to build. Hands on exp erience is gold

comes cheap and in high quality from google.

some background very basic knowledge,

most cannot read a lot before that I suppose...

ntain pen that I used to copy diagrams.

Pretty much my story, allthough I did not start until 9 or so, and I had no problem at the library. I just wish my farther would have supported me mor e, spending some money on instruments for me, that would have meant a lot. My kids get whatever they ask for relating to hobbies/electronics. The good night stories from me are often started with something the must learn. Last week my 6 and 9 year old learned about binary numbers and hexadecimal numb ers. (took them only 10 minutes to learn)

Sort of :-)

Cheers

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 Apr 2015 02:51:45 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Klaus Kragelund wrote in :

Now we are being a bit pessimistic are not we .. 10 Hz, Well I assume you mean < 10 MHz, DC they all do. You still do not get embedded do you? First I use the 10 MHz scope on 64 MHz PICs. That makes 16 MHz instruction cycle. that makes to flip an I/O pin on / off ? Even if you do NOTHING in between, just the loop.

In 99.9999999999 % of cases where you use the scope in embedded, 10 MHz is fast enough. And analog is the thing to have, no aliasing. And, you will have to learn to write test routines to check things.

The restriction would be storing some long sequence to see if you missed a pulse. Signal analyzer.. There are ways to test that with that 10 MHz scope too.

Dumb-phone you mean, hold a huge piece of glass mirror next to your head to say hello. My small clever Nokia anytime, with the smarties. And the buttons also work when wet.

Recently somebody on an ocean trip posted to a sailing group he found these 'pads' great, running Navigatrix, maps etc, but was desperate as he could not type on it... So people started to point out bluetooth keyboards to him. The part Jobs saved on.

Well, you can just build it into your design, like a digital voltmeter sort of thing. Just a tool. I think somebody took the idea and did it open source on kickstarter in a watch:

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He added a lot of improvements.

Well the honor goes to the guy here who pointed that DVB-T stick thing out to me, and the Linux driver programmer who found the way to use it that way. There is a lot of stuff for that stick around on the internet.

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I only wrote my own version.

We agree.

That is cool, yes youngsters have an incredible learning capability. At that age neural nets are still forming (hardware learning) IIRC (or was it till 4?) that will help them the rest of their lives. I am studying for some exams these days, and find it takes a lot of repeating and re-reading trying to understand the general underlying history and view, as this is not something I grew up with like 'tricity, but then I am really really old...

Reply to
Jan Panteltje
[snip]
[snip]

My first scope was a Dumont ;-) ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson
[snip]
[snip]

I grew up in a Radio & TV repair shop. Built my first heterodyne radio while I was in Cub Scouts... on first turn-on received Boston's WBZ in Huntington, WV... I was thrilled ;-)

Besides access to all the parts on hand in his shop, my father established an account for me at our local parts wholesaler, and I had access to Germanium transistors by 1956 (when I was 16). ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

No, the brightness was OK. It's repetitive sweep.

The real problem with that generation of scopes was

Not really triggered Repetitive sweep, no retrace blanking AC coupled everything Nothing calibrated... pretty much qualitative. Ugly

The next milestone in my life (excepting girls) (excepting skiing) was when I got a Knight Kit scope. Allied tried, for a while, to compete with Heathkit. The Knight scope was a mini-Tektronix: Calibrated, DC coupled, triggered sweep, DC unblanking, flat-face PDA CRT, illuminated graticule, a serious quantitative instrument. It was about $150, I recall.

Anyone semi-serious about electronics needs to get quantitative, and a digital scope is great for that.

Yes, it's a continuous sawtooth with a "sync" input so you could sort of sync it to a repetitive signal. Sort of.

Bad schematic, in Polish or something.

Looks sort of like the Telequipment scopes that Tek sold for a while. Probably doesn't have a vertical delay line.

No, no! There is so much cool gear (like Rigol, or ebay sampling scopes) and software around now (LT Spice etc) and exotic parts available from Digikey, that an individual with a modest budget can do world-class electronics at home.

ebay is like the world's biggest electronic flea market.

Used ones, maybe. There are few analog scopes still being built, and no fast ones that I know of. It's a lot easier to solder an ADC to a board than set up a glass-blowing factory.

Digital scopes are great. They let you see and measure stuff that no analog scope could.

We were looking at the output of our random noise generator last week, and I thought I saw something weird once in a while. Other people didn't. So we stopped the sweep and prowled back through the saved waveform memory (this is the 1 GHz Rigol, with megasamples of memory) and sure enough, we found a breakup; the FPGA guy got a scaling wrong and caused a rare math rollover.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
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Reply to
John Larkin

My mom set up a revolving credit account with Allied, so I could order anything I wanted, within reason.

My uncle Sheldon was a WWII radio guy and ran a TV repair shop, so I had an infinite supply of old tube TV chassis. He taught me a lot.

I think it's best to start electronics young, fiddling with things at first and getting quantitative roughly around puberty, when the serious math kicks in.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
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Reply to
John Larkin

Probably similar performance, AC coupled, repetitive sweep. Horrible stuff. Tektronix made scopes quantitative. The 535 was awesome.

Tek started by using Dumont CRTs. Dumont kept the best ones and sold Tek the fallouts, the ones with bad deflection plate alignment. That didn't last long.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
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Reply to
John Larkin

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:11:00 -0700) it happened John Larkin wrote in :

When you use it as TV, the brightnes goes down with the scanned area. That is why TVs have such a high HT, So it will be OK for a single line (trace) but be hardly visible with a few hundred scan lines. Even that Trio scope of mine that has a high HV (few kV?) has big problems there.

mm

Before any 'quantitative', remember that us neural nets catch the ball without doing math much faster than a mathemagician can do the calculations. :-) I keep arguing that math is just a process executing in small subset of the human brain, and need not have any relation (or truth factor) to reality. That is why simulations of animals on alien planets will not provide us food. 'Artist impressions', you name it.

French, but now I found this:

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Trio-Kenwood They made and still make great radio equipment too. They know their transistors, look at that circuit diagram, it is amazing. A while back I was working through one of their transceiver circuit diagrams, all balanced, FETS, no chips, like somebody really tried to get the best out of the hardware. Tons of trimmers too.

OK, but you make it sound if the storage scope was the only way to find that. There usually are many ways, often much simpler, like listening to it :-)

Hey I was just recommending an OLED to somebody,. could not remember if I had graphics going on that OLED, so looked up some old code and made a cable to the PC par port to see how fast that works:

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So I could make scope_pic with this display a lot smaller...

Now they have these displays in color too:

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Reply to
Jan Panteltje

[snip]

Absolutely! I have always contended that I knew how to design circuits _before_ I went to MIT... MIT just added the necessary math and physics to my toolset. ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

Yep. My Dad's Dumont was a real dog... spent most of its time stored on a high shelf. ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

Without doing math, electronic design is hopeless. You can't fiddle things much more complex than a battery-resistor-LED, and you'll probably blow out some LEDs in the process.

Beginners need to do the math from day one, or they will never get anywhere.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 
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Reply to
John Larkin

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 Apr 2015 10:25:42 -0700) it happened John Larkin wrote in :

mm :-)

You lose. Pay e00$ and goto start.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

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