VW hoping to challenge Tesla

:

mpowered to

he

ore quickly."

freedom from bureaucracy and the right team.

ld engineers who are still too young to have their ego's get in the way of accomplishing the goal. And a good group of managers who care more about th e product than their careers.

rs and

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ely the

ensions

ng other

in the

golf-is-dead/

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of my list, but I've seen a Karmann Ghia that would be so cool to have in e lectric. The trouble is those cars have fond memories and may even look gre at, but in reality are pretty crap cars. They have really improved cars a L OT over the last 50 years. Besides, if you converted a Beetle you would hav e to add speakers to make that Beetle exhaust whistle.

anything else would be such a PITA for me.

Yeah, but you are the guy who is happy to wait for the sun to charge your b attery. The rest of us have things we'd like to do other than sitting by the road waiting for the car to gather energy from the sun, one electron at a time. That's why I don't look forward to a car that can't charge everyw here I want to go. Life is just to short to wait for slow charging.

a HQ. They only have free CCS. Next to me was a Bolt, Tesla and another Lea f. The CCS was empty all along. Not sure why the Bolt didn't use it, but th e Tesla and Leaf could have used ChaDeMo. On the other (east) side of the b ridge and south side have free chargers with both plugs.

I'm not sure, but the chargers VW is installing through Electrify America h ave two cables, but not for two cars simultaneously. I believe this is bec ause there is no standardization of where the plug is on the cars. That's why Tesla chargers can use a much shorter cord, the jack is right there on that corner. Lower losses without using an insanely heavy cable. I believ e the newer seriously high wattage units have water cooling in the cable. That's pretty insane, but I guess they don't want to bump up the voltage, l ikely creating reverse compatibility issues.

--

Rick C. 

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

ote:

ered to

quickly."

dom from bureaucracy and the right team.

ngineers who are still too young to have their ego's get in the way of acco mplishing the goal. And a good group of managers who care more about the pr oduct than their careers.

nd

ing

the

ons

ther

the

-is-dead/

trim.

I don't have exact numbers, but mashing the pedal to the metal in a Tesla a ll but makes the gas gauge needle drop as it ramps up the speed. I2R losse s go up with the square of the current you know while power only goes up li nearly since the voltage is relatively fixed. I don't recall what I've mea sured exactly, but it's pretty amazing how big a hit 600 HP can make in the battery charge even for a few seconds. It's not huge, but it's not micros copic either. In fact, the limitation of Teslas on the Autobahn seem to be dealing with the waste heat from having to ramp up and down in speed when encountering traffic. Otherwise they can run all day at very high speeds.

--

Rick C. 

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Ya but you don't need a 600 hp motor for a sub 7 second 0-60 even in a car the better part of two tons, the Chevy Bolt does it fine with a main motor a bit shy of 200.

Nobody buys a 600 hp anything to be "eco-friendly." The difference in peak power output required to get from 9 to 7 is not much, from 7 to 5 or 4 is huge.

Ok small diesel locomotives and tugboat engines excluded.

owered to

e quickly."

eedom from bureaucracy and the right team.

engineers who are still too young to have their ego's get in the way of ac complishing the goal. And a good group of managers who care more about the product than their careers.

and

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y the

sions

other

n the

lf-is-dead/

p trim.

la all but makes the gas gauge needle drop as it ramps up the speed. I2R lo sses go up with the square of the current you know while power only goes up linearly since the voltage is relatively fixed. I don't recall what I've m easured exactly, but it's pretty amazing how big a hit 600 HP can make in t he battery charge even for a few seconds. It's not huge, but it's not micro scopic either. In fact, the limitation of Teslas on the Autobahn seem to be dealing with the waste heat from having to ramp up and down in speed when encountering traffic. Otherwise they can run all day at very high speeds.

Yeah, but to go from 0 to 60 sub 4 seconds in a 3 ton car, you do need 600 hp.

The car is still pretty light on fuel. I get under 300 Wh/mi in most drivi ng and it costs a LOT less than buying gas in any car I've ever owned (mayb e not my Suzuki 90cc bike which I could fill the tank for a quarter, circa

1970). It's hard to imagine the fuel cost being so low if it isn't actuall y much more fuel efficient. Actually people have done those calculations a nd EVs, even the big Teslas, use much less fuel from the energy source and produce around half the carbon. Once electricity generation is mostly rene wable the carbon emissions will drop toward zero which is why they are a ca lled zero emissions vehicles.

EVs are so not like gas guzzlers. You can have a metric shit ton of power and not have it whack your mileage on every mile (1.6 km) you drive. Do th ey still call it "mileage" when you measure it metrically?

--

Rick C. 

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

te:

: :

empowered to

the

more quickly."

- freedom from bureaucracy and the right team.

old engineers who are still too young to have their ego's get in the way o f accomplishing the goal. And a good group of managers who care more about the product than their careers.

tors and

e getting

isely the

spensions

mong other

ct in the

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and

p of my list, but I've seen a Karmann Ghia that would be so cool to have in electric. The trouble is those cars have fond memories and may even look g reat, but in reality are pretty crap cars. They have really improved cars a LOT over the last 50 years. Besides, if you converted a Beetle you would h ave to add speakers to make that Beetle exhaust whistle.

ng anything else would be such a PITA for me.

battery. The rest of us have things we'd like to do other than sitting by the road waiting for the car to gather energy from the sun, one electron at a time. That's why I don't look forward to a car that can't charge everywh ere I want to go. Life is just to short to wait for slow charging.

lta HQ. They only have free CCS. Next to me was a Bolt, Tesla and another L eaf. The CCS was empty all along. Not sure why the Bolt didn't use it, but the Tesla and Leaf could have used ChaDeMo. On the other (east) side of the bridge and south side have free chargers with both plugs.

have two cables, but not for two cars simultaneously. I believe this is be cause there is no standardization of where the plug is on the cars. That's why Tesla chargers can use a much shorter cord, the jack is right there on that corner. Lower losses without using an insanely heavy cable. I believe the newer seriously high wattage units have water cooling in the cable. Tha t's pretty insane, but I guess they don't want to bump up the voltage, like ly creating reverse compatibility issues.

The ChaDeMo port is right in front of the car, nowhere else. I have seen T esla backing into charger. Location of charging port is not an issue. VW/E A have two ports for CCS and ChaDeMo because they are pushing for CCS while still supporting ChaDeMo. Except that they don't even have any CCS car to push for at the moment.

Volta / Shell's Greenlots app issues deserve any thread for discussion.

e:

rote:

te:

te:

re empowered to

of the

le more quickly."

h - freedom from bureaucracy and the right team.

ar old engineers who are still too young to have their ego's get in the way of accomplishing the goal. And a good group of managers who care more abou t the product than their careers.

motors and

be getting

ecisely the

suspensions

among other

duct in the

n-e-golf-is-dead/

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top of my list, but I've seen a Karmann Ghia that would be so cool to have in electric. The trouble is those cars have fond memories and may even look great, but in reality are pretty crap cars. They have really improved cars a LOT over the last 50 years. Besides, if you converted a Beetle you would have to add speakers to make that Beetle exhaust whistle.

ging anything else would be such a PITA for me.

ur battery. The rest of us have things we'd like to do other than sitting b y the road waiting for the car to gather energy from the sun, one electron at a time. That's why I don't look forward to a car that can't charge every where I want to go. Life is just to short to wait for slow charging.

Volta HQ. They only have free CCS. Next to me was a Bolt, Tesla and another Leaf. The CCS was empty all along. Not sure why the Bolt didn't use it, bu t the Tesla and Leaf could have used ChaDeMo. On the other (east) side of t he bridge and south side have free chargers with both plugs.

ca have two cables, but not for two cars simultaneously. I believe this is because there is no standardization of where the plug is on the cars. That' s why Tesla chargers can use a much shorter cord, the jack is right there o n that corner. Lower losses without using an insanely heavy cable. I believ e the newer seriously high wattage units have water cooling in the cable. T hat's pretty insane, but I guess they don't want to bump up the voltage, li kely creating reverse compatibility issues.

Non Tesla ChaDeMo port

Tesla backing into charger. Location of charging port is not an issue. VW/E A have two ports for CCS and ChaDeMo because they are pushing for CCS while still supporting ChaDeMo. Except that they don't even have any CCS car to push for at the moment.

Another thread

My fingers are not cooperating with my brain.

e:

rote:

te:

te:

re empowered to

of the

le more quickly."

h - freedom from bureaucracy and the right team.

ar old engineers who are still too young to have their ego's get in the way of accomplishing the goal. And a good group of managers who care more abou t the product than their careers.

motors and

be getting

ecisely the

suspensions

among other

duct in the

n-e-golf-is-dead/

the top trim.

ing to

l and

top of my list, but I've seen a Karmann Ghia that would be so cool to have in electric. The trouble is those cars have fond memories and may even look great, but in reality are pretty crap cars. They have really improved cars a LOT over the last 50 years. Besides, if you converted a Beetle you would have to add speakers to make that Beetle exhaust whistle.

ging anything else would be such a PITA for me.

ur battery. The rest of us have things we'd like to do other than sitting b y the road waiting for the car to gather energy from the sun, one electron at a time. That's why I don't look forward to a car that can't charge every where I want to go. Life is just to short to wait for slow charging.

Volta HQ. They only have free CCS. Next to me was a Bolt, Tesla and another Leaf. The CCS was empty all along. Not sure why the Bolt didn't use it, bu t the Tesla and Leaf could have used ChaDeMo. On the other (east) side of t he bridge and south side have free chargers with both plugs.

ca have two cables, but not for two cars simultaneously. I believe this is because there is no standardization of where the plug is on the cars. That' s why Tesla chargers can use a much shorter cord, the jack is right there o n that corner. Lower losses without using an insanely heavy cable. I believ e the newer seriously high wattage units have water cooling in the cable. T hat's pretty insane, but I guess they don't want to bump up the voltage, li kely creating reverse compatibility issues.

Tesla backing into charger. Location of charging port is not an issue. VW/E A have two ports for CCS and ChaDeMo because they are pushing for CCS while still supporting ChaDeMo. Except that they don't even have any CCS car to push for at the moment.

It seems manufacturers have chosen all four corners of the car as well as f ront center.

Not sure what you are talking about.

--

Rick C. 

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I'm skeptical whether renewables can ever support technological civilization in the fashion to which we've become accustomed. My intuition is that when fossil fuels run out the human race goes extinct. But I've been wrong before - hope so!

Nothing lasts forever...

:

mpowered to

he

ore quickly."

freedom from bureaucracy and the right team.

ld engineers who are still too young to have their ego's get in the way of accomplishing the goal. And a good group of managers who care more about th e product than their careers.

rs and

getting

ely the

ensions

ng other

in the

golf-is-dead/

top trim.

to

d t

esla all but makes the gas gauge needle drop as it ramps up the speed. I2R losses go up with the square of the current you know while power only goes up linearly since the voltage is relatively fixed. I don't recall what I've measured exactly, but it's pretty amazing how big a hit 600 HP can make in the battery charge even for a few seconds. It's not huge, but it's not mic roscopic either. In fact, the limitation of Teslas on the Autobahn seem to be dealing with the waste heat from having to ramp up and down in speed whe n encountering traffic. Otherwise they can run all day at very high speeds.

in

600 hp.

iving and it costs a LOT less than buying gas in any car I've ever owned (m aybe not my Suzuki 90cc bike which I could fill the tank for a quarter, cir ca 1970). It's hard to imagine the fuel cost being so low if it isn't actua lly much more fuel efficient. Actually people have done those calculations and EVs, even the big Teslas, use much less fuel from the energy source and produce around half the carbon. Once electricity generation is mostly rene wable the carbon emissions will drop toward zero which is why they are a ca lled zero emissions vehicles.

er and not have it whack your mileage on every mile (1.6 km) you drive. Do they still call it "mileage" when you measure it metrically?

But renewables give better quality of life, even if just fractional. Durin g this pandemic, air quality in many part of the world improved with burnin g less fossil.

Too bad, the pandemic can't and won't.

Except for fissile materials, all usable energy sources are based on solar radiation. The amount of solar radiation hitting each square meter of the surface of the earth on annual average is well known. The question is how to convert it to some more usable form such as electricity.

Direct PV conversion has an efficiency of 10-15 %, while photosynthesis and later burning biomass has even worse total efficiency, requiring larger solar radiation collection areas. Some biomass is created during one summer, some takes decades or centuries (wood), some requires thousands of years (peat) and some have been collected during millions of years (coal, LNG, oil).

As long as the average available collection area is larger than the average distance between people (i.e. inverse of population density). If the human population growth continues at current uncontrolled rate, the population density increases and the available solar collection area per person will be reduced. This will ultimately require a better conversion efficiency to support more people.

On Wednesday, 2 December 2020 at 06:22:11 UTC-8, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote: ...

front center.

...

In general, the charge port is at the same end of the car as the motor (Tes la has had RWD only variants) to avoid having to put high-current cable (co sts $$, weight and space) from one end of the car to the other. It is espe cially valid for cars that support fast DC charging.

kw

On Tuesday, 1 December 2020 at 20:35:26 UTC-8, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot e: ...

have two cables, but not for two cars simultaneously. I believe this is be cause there is no standardization of where the plug is on the cars. That's why Tesla chargers can use a much shorter cord, the jack is right there on that corner. Lower losses without using an insanely heavy cable. I believe the newer seriously high wattage units have water cooling in the cable. Tha t's pretty insane, but I guess they don't want to bump up the voltage, like ly creating reverse compatibility issues. ...

Most CCS stations that currently exist are limited to 500V (Tesla is simila r). So most EVs use a nominal 400V system (300-450V or so over SOC) at up t o ~200A (300A for Tesla).

The Porsche Taycan has an 800V system and can use either the existing CCS a t 400V or the future version of CCS that supports up to ~850V.

Other vehicles will undoubtedly follow.

kw

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 at 5:28:51 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@kjwdesigns.com wr ote:

ote:

ca have two cables, but not for two cars simultaneously. I believe this is because there is no standardization of where the plug is on the cars. That' s why Tesla chargers can use a much shorter cord, the jack is right there o n that corner. Lower losses without using an insanely heavy cable. I believ e the newer seriously high wattage units have water cooling in the cable. T hat's pretty insane, but I guess they don't want to bump up the voltage, li kely creating reverse compatibility issues.

lar). So most EVs use a nominal 400V system (300-450V or so over SOC) at up to ~200A (300A for Tesla).

at 400V or the future version of CCS that supports up to ~850V.

I don't know why. Tesla certainly is not likely to change. You cite volts and amp but what matters is watts, related, but not the same. Tesla has 2

50 kW chargers that charge a car only slightly faster than the 150 kW charg ers because the limitation is currently the batteries, not the chargers. S o there is no real need to up the voltage for charging unless it's just bec ause that's what the car demands. Give it another 5 years is what I say. Let the dust settle so the trends are more visible. Also, don't think of a nything in EVs as being static. They will likely change dramatically over the next decade or two as new technologies are developed.

--

Rick C. 

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

:

mpowered to

he

ore quickly."

freedom from bureaucracy and the right team.

ld engineers who are still too young to have their ego's get in the way of accomplishing the goal. And a good group of managers who care more about th e product than their careers.

rs and

getting

ely the

ensions

ng other

in the

golf-is-dead/

top trim.

to

d t

esla all but makes the gas gauge needle drop as it ramps up the speed. I2R losses go up with the square of the current you know while power only goes up linearly since the voltage is relatively fixed. I don't recall what I've measured exactly, but it's pretty amazing how big a hit 600 HP can make in the battery charge even for a few seconds. It's not huge, but it's not mic roscopic either. In fact, the limitation of Teslas on the Autobahn seem to be dealing with the waste heat from having to ramp up and down in speed whe n encountering traffic. Otherwise they can run all day at very high speeds.

in

600 hp.

iving and it costs a LOT less than buying gas in any car I've ever owned (m aybe not my Suzuki 90cc bike which I could fill the tank for a quarter, cir ca 1970). It's hard to imagine the fuel cost being so low if it isn't actua lly much more fuel efficient. Actually people have done those calculations and EVs, even the big Teslas, use much less fuel from the energy source and produce around half the carbon. Once electricity generation is mostly rene wable the carbon emissions will drop toward zero which is why they are a ca lled zero emissions vehicles.

er and not have it whack your mileage on every mile (1.6 km) you drive. Do they still call it "mileage" when you measure it metrically?

By the time fossil fuels run out we will be able to manufacture them for th e few applications where they are required. Their need for fuel will virtu ally dry up as the cost rises until we can manufacture hydrocarbons cheaper than we can dig them up.

--

Rick C. 

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, 2 December 2020 at 14:55:39 UTC-8, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote: ..

and amp but what matters is watts, related, but not the same. Tesla has 25

0 kW chargers that charge a car only slightly faster than the 150 kW charge rs because the limitation is currently the batteries, not the chargers. So there is no real need to up the voltage for charging unless it's just becau se that's what the car demands. Give it another 5 years is what I say. Let the dust settle so the trends are more visible. Also, don't think of anythi ng in EVs as being static. They will likely change dramatically over the ne xt decade or two as new technologies are developed. ... As you say it is the power that is important but the current is limited by multiple things, not just the batteries. Increasing the voltage increases t he maximum power for the same current. Modern semiconductors and insulation allow more than the 400V used at the moment.

The maximum current is also limited by such things as the weight of the cha rging cable, the physical size of the connector etc. Tesla does push things a bit more than others. For example, the CCS connector is limited to 200A. To get more power the voltage needs to increase.

I haven't heard of Tesla planning to increase the voltage but with the larg er batteries in the Roadster and the CyberTruck the battery will not be the limitation. Battery improvements and the desire to achieve faster charging will also be an incentive to increase voltage.

Porsche claimed to reduce the wiring weight by 66lbs by using an 800V rathe r than a 400-volt system, so that's another advantage.

kw

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 at 6:24:05 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@kjwdesigns.com wr ote:

ts and amp but what matters is watts, related, but not the same. Tesla has

250 kW chargers that charge a car only slightly faster than the 150 kW char gers because the limitation is currently the batteries, not the chargers. S o there is no real need to up the voltage for charging unless it's just bec ause that's what the car demands. Give it another 5 years is what I say. Le t the dust settle so the trends are more visible. Also, don't think of anyt hing in EVs as being static. They will likely change dramatically over the next decade or two as new technologies are developed.

y multiple things, not just the batteries. Increasing the voltage increases the maximum power for the same current. Modern semiconductors and insulati on allow more than the 400V used at the moment.

Yes, increasing the voltage increases some theoretical power in an imaginar y EV charging world. It has no real impact on real batteries that to this day do not tolerate charging rates much better than 1 hour.

harging cable, the physical size of the connector etc. Tesla does push thin gs a bit more than others. For example, the CCS connector is limited to 200 A. To get more power the voltage needs to increase.

No, you can raise the voltage all you want the battery won't take more powe r than it can handle. I guess it would help charging Tesla semis.

rger batteries in the Roadster and the CyberTruck the battery will not be t he limitation. Battery improvements and the desire to achieve faster chargi ng will also be an incentive to increase voltage.

With 250 kW chargers the battery is still the limitation. Do the math. It 's not complicated.

her than a 400-volt system, so that's another advantage.

That's inside the car, not the chargers.

--

Rick C. 

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, 2 December 2020 at 17:26:18 UTC-8, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote: ...

ary EV charging world. It has no real impact on real batteries that to this day do not tolerate charging rates much better than 1 hour.

But cars with larger batteries (the 2020 Roadster and CyberTruck for exampl e have batteries twice the size of existing Tesla vehicles). To achieve tha t 1 hour charging time will require higher rates.

wer than it can handle. I guess it would help charging Tesla semis.

Again, even the Tesla Roadster and Cybertruck have 200kWh batteries - they may be able to take up to about twice the power of existing vehicles while charging. The wiring would then be the limit.

larger batteries in the Roadster and the CyberTruck the battery will not be the limitation. Battery improvements and the desire to achieve faster char ging will also be an incentive to increase voltage.

's not complicated.

I know, I've done the calculations, I'm referring to newer vehicles or to e xisting ones with improved batteries. The Porsche Taycan allows charging at up to 270kW into its ~90kWh battery.

ather than a 400-volt system, so that's another advantage.

Precisely - the weight of the external chargers is of little importance - t he weight of vehicle components is very important. All car manufacturers ar e very particular about weight - they even have to take into account every nut, screw and washer etc.

Sixty-six pounds reduction (1-2% of vehicle weight) possibly allows less ba ttery, and a lower power motor to provide the same performance and range, o r an increase in performance for the same battery/motor; or a reduction in cost.

kw

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 at 9:44:57 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@kjwdesigns.com wr ote:

inary EV charging world. It has no real impact on real batteries that to th is day do not tolerate charging rates much better than 1 hour.

ple have batteries twice the size of existing Tesla vehicles). To achieve t hat 1 hour charging time will require higher rates.

Yes, but not higher voltages. They have chargers operating at a full 250 k W. My car charges at a max rate of around 140 kW and that is only for a sh ort range of battery state of charge, ~20% - 40%. It falls linearly from t here. That's why the 250 kW charger does little good for current cars (no ne for mine). The models 3 and Y will fill out the triangle charging up to wherever that peak is for a few brief minutes before resuming the ramp dow n.

In the truck or the roadster the 250 kW charger will ramp up to whatever de fines the max rate, car or charger and stay at that rate for some time befo re dropping at the higher end as they all do. So an hour or close to it is entirely practical with the present chargers.

I have a lot of criticisms about Tesla, but failure to think ahead is not o ne of them.

power than it can handle. I guess it would help charging Tesla semis.

y may be able to take up to about twice the power of existing vehicles whil e charging. The wiring would then be the limit.

What wiring??? They have 250 kW charges in the field now. I seem to recal l reading of a new station the other day that was some large number of unit s and all V3, 250 kW.

e larger batteries in the Roadster and the CyberTruck the battery will not be the limitation. Battery improvements and the desire to achieve faster ch arging will also be an incentive to increase voltage.

It's not complicated.

existing ones with improved batteries. The Porsche Taycan allows charging at up to 270kW into its ~90kWh battery.

Where do you find such chargers for the Porsche? At the dealer?

rather than a 400-volt system, so that's another advantage.

the weight of vehicle components is very important. All car manufacturers are very particular about weight - they even have to take into account ever y nut, screw and washer etc.

What matters in the car is the result. So far not many complain about the results the Tesla cars produce.

battery, and a lower power motor to provide the same performance and range, or an increase in performance for the same battery/motor; or a reduction i n cost.

Now you are being a bit silly. 1% reduction of the car weight (is that wet or dry? lol) is only meaningful to a race car driver where they win or lo se by inches. I guess the Porsche could be made with an 89 kWh battery.

The problem with that car is range. I seem to recall it doesn't go so far on the 90 kWh.

There is no point in focusing on any one detail of a car. A car is a whole and only has meaning when considering all the parts. Tesla has done a gre at job of considering nearly every aspect of owning an EV. But in some few years nearly everyone will be selling EVs in numbers and nearly everyone w ill be buying them and charging in their garage on a 6 kW charger.

--

Rick C. 

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209