very accurate timer

Hello, this is my first post here so here it goes...

I'm looking for a highly accurate timer, I need one that could measure a time in nanoseconds

if possible. I figured this would not be impossible since the clockspeed of a modern

computer is 3 Ghz, which means measuring a time up to a third of a nanosecond would be

possible. However a nanosecond is also fine by me;P I really hope someone can help me out here on how to get such a component or how to make one;)

Thanks in Advance;)

Dave

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Reply to
fragget
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in nanoseconds

modern

would be

how to make one;)

Just buy one:

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Will cost you $5000 though, but if this is for work tell'em it'll cost you more than that to dick around trying to build something suitable.

Dave :)

Reply to
David L. Jones

in nanoseconds

modern

would be

how to make one;)

Just waiting for Bill S to jump in with an ECL problem solver answer....

martin

Reply to
martin griffith

in nanoseconds

modern

would be

how to make one;)

What are you trying to measure?

John

Reply to
John Larkin

in nanoseconds

modern

would be

how to make one;)

ECL will get you a 500MHz clock. When I did it for real, we actually used Gigabit Logic's GaAs and an 800MHz clock, then interpolated between clock edges with analog ramps to get down to 10psec resolution

- the jitter on our clock was about 60psec so the 10psec was entirely theoretical.

The version I designed a few years later using ECLinPS and a 500MHz clock was to have used a 500MHz Vectron crystal oscillator with around

1psec of jitter.

John Larkin now sells stuff to do the job.

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--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Reply to
bill.sloman

Hello Dave,

in nanoseconds

modern

would be

how to make one;)

Bill mentioned the digital + analog method which is what I'd do. If you feel uncomfortable around blazingly fast analog stuff either get help or:

Run several fast counters in parallel but shift their clocks. For example, if your ECL counter runs 500MHz but you want a 500psec granularity you run four in parallel. #1 gets the straight clock. #2 gets the clock delayed by 500psec, #3 delayed by 1nsec and #4 delayed by

1.5nsec.

They all receive the same start and stop signal. Of course, you'll have to look into the setup and hold stuff so you don't accidentally choke a counter. Now your PC needs to read the results of all four and then determine the exact timings by looking at which one started first, how many clock cycles it did, which one stopped last and how many cycles that one did. The readout process can be slow because now the counters are stopped.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply to
Joerg

time in nanoseconds

a modern

nanosecond would be

how to make one;)

You could now do EclipsLite to 2 GHz at least.

That one interpolates a 40 Mhz clock! I just sold 8 of them to a guy who's going to shine a laser beam through turbine blades, time the interruptions, and figure out blade vibration modes.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

in nanoseconds

modern

would be

how to make one;)

Frequency counters have gating circuits so that you can measure a pulse time.

The HP5340A cost me $300 a decade ago. No idea what they go for today, but it should be less.

Reply to
miso

Dave,

before you start up to construct something on your own which is by FAR not trivial go out and buy one of the following devices:

Racal Dana 1991 or Racal Dana 1992 or Racal Dana 1996 counters.

These have a nominal 1 ns resolution for single shot time interval measurements. If you use their IEEE488 you get out some digits more and you can see that the rms jitter of the counter itself is in the order of 300 ps. These devices are no more build today but can be bought surplus at very cheap prices. Most of them are equipped with a high quality OCXO timebase.

If you are out for a bit more resolution and want to spend some dollars more, go out and get yourself a HP/Agilent 53131 counter which has a nominal

500 ps resolution. If you want even more resolution and spend more $s buy the HP/Agilent 53132 with nominal 150 ps resolution. Both models are from the current program.

If you need to get better, choices start to get rare: A surplus HP5370A/B (no more build today) will give you a 20 ps resolution for single shots at a reasonable price. A Stanford Research SR620 will give you the same resolution but be prepared for a smaller shock when looking at the price tag.

If you can avoid DON'T build something on your own. There are hundreds of ways to perform sub-ns timing measurement but you can spend months to years in order to learn the tricks that are necessary to make simple sounding theory work in reality.

Best regards Ulrich Bangert

schrieb im Newsbeitrag news: snipped-for-privacy@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

time in nanoseconds

of a modern

nanosecond would be

component or how to make one;)

Reply to
Ulrich Bangert

Hi Dave,

If you can use averaging, you can count an accurate clock several thousand times and average the counts. This is how at least one of the HP counters worked. The rms error decreases with the square of the number of counts. This places a practical limit on the minimum error you can achieve before you run out of time, or the signal drifts.

If you can use averaging, you can also use the Binary Sampling technique descibed below. This bypasses the square root averaging barrier. The example shown is a 1MHz square wave, and using this technique gave 1 picosecond rms jitter in one second.

Regards,

Mike Monett

Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution:

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SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators:
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Noise-Rejecting Wideband Sampler:
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Reply to
Mike Monett

This is good advice, but while we spent three years getting our prototype working, the interpolation system only needed a month or so of work.

Our biggest single problem was caused by the printed circuit department, who "knew" that the ordering of the inner layers of a printed circuit board didn't matter, so had a six layer board made with the ground planes on layers 3 and 4, rather than 2 and 5 as I'd carefully specified in my release note to the printed circuit department.

It took us months to work out why the board wouldn't work - every time I looked in on the engineer who was working on the board (nominally my boss at that point) I'd point out to him that he had the board layers stacked up wrong in his pile of documentation, but it took about six weeks before he drilled down through the board to check. Once the penny dropped, he sort of got the board working by replacing all the critical tracks with lengths of sub-minature coax (50VMTX, still stocked by Farnell) but we had to get another batch of boards made before we had anything that looked like a prototype.

The two outer layers of the board weren't FR4 epoxy glass, but Teflon cloth bonded with isocynate resin, and the board were biggish - triple extended Eurocards, largely to accomodate mixed DIN41612 connectors with coax inserts - and they cost us about $1500 each. Populating them cost as much again.

They'd be a lot cheaper today and - as John Larkin has pointed out - appreciably faster.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Reply to
bill.sloman

Another interesting option for better, from the "47uF capacitor" thread:

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Just buy an evaluation system rather than try to build a system on a 2 layer board like the 47uF cap OP foolishly thinks he wants to do.

Reply to
Glen Walpert

On 13 Oct 2006 02:25:45 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@ieee.org wrote in Msg.

Really? 50vmtx didn't turn up anything useful at Farnell.

robert

Reply to
Robert Latest

Try order code 157-284 or manufacturer's list number 5633JZZD - it's on page 59 of volume 2 of my Farnell catalogue.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Reply to
bill.sloman

time in nanoseconds

a modern

nanosecond would be

how to make one;)

There is a cuter variation on this called the vernier chronotron. See

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which points to an article of that name in Review of Scientific Instruments -- March 1959 -- Volume 30, Issue 3, pp. 159-166 by Harlan W. Lefevre and James T. Russell of the Hanford Laboratories Operation, General Electric Company, Richland, Washington.

I got to hear about it in 1970, when one of my colleagues at Plessey Pacific got talking about his Ph.D. project which involved building a similar instrument with bistables built with pairs of tunnel diodes.

I'd known him - vaguely - when we were both Ph.D, students at Melbourne, both using the university mainframe for our - very different

- projects. He was simulating his tunnel diode bistables and thought that he had proved that he'd made them designable. They were certainly very fast.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Reply to
bill.sloman

in nanoseconds

modern

would be

how to make one;)

A 5370A or B can be had on ebay or from a broker for under $1000. They have 20 ps single-shot resolution and around 30 ps RMS jitter, typically.

My friend Bernard did this one...

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John

Reply to
John Larkin

Hello Bill,

in nanoseconds

modern

would be

how to make one;)

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I like that term "millimicrosecond region". That must have driven the physicists among the readers crazy. Can't read the full paper, I wish they would make these public domain after such a long time.

Ah, Plessey. Good old company. Before things folded I stocked up on their famous mixer SL6440. It has a dynamic range from here to the Klondike yet doesn't need a lot of L.O. power. It's a pity no other company bought the rights and kept producing it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply to
Joerg

Hello John,

Even rather mundane test equipment could possibly be capable after some mods. When I repaired the HP4191 here in the lab I found that it had two very nice 300psec timed samplers in there, plus triggered ramp generators with remarkable precision. Milled module enclosures, rigid coax and all the good stuff.

Very pretty design! Did he have a pro do that enclosure? The only thing I wouldn't like is the buttons. Those tend to wear out quickly.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply to
Joerg

Resolution : 1ps Jitter : 30ps rms

Why claim 1ps when the system jitter is so large? You are paying for useless digits. Averaging to improve the SNR would take forever, and the system would probably drift before the rms error got close to 1ps. So the resolution spec is meaningless. IMHO, the resolution spec should be >= rms jitter. Regards,

Mike Monett

Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution:

formatting link
SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators:
formatting link
Noise-Rejecting Wideband Sampler:
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Reply to
Mike Monett

Hello Mike,

That had me puzzled as well :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply to
Joerg

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