thermal baggie things

Ok, so let's use the PCB as a heat sink. The problem is you're mostly conducting the heat through the BGA balls and have an air gap between the BGA case and the PCB. Fill the air gap with something thermally conductive. Some ideas:

  1. Draw a bead of RTV (high temp automotive engine head gasket type) on 3 sides of the BGA chip. On the open 4th side, use a blunt end syringe full of diluted silicone grease to inject the goo UNDER the BGA chip. For dilution, use xylene, toluene, Goop-Off, acetone, or any organic solvent that does not have much water in it. Reagent grade alcohol will work, but the 90% stuff will leave water behind. You want the stuff to evaporate on application. When the gap is filled and the solvent evaporated, seal the 4th side with more RTV.
  2. Same as above except use some kind of thermally conductive liquid. Fluorinert comes to mind, but is rather pricey. Maybe 100% antifreeze or your favorite water free salad oil instead. Same ritual as above except there's no evaporation. However, there is a risk of a leak, which should be tested with an UV dye tracer and a UV flashlight. You can find UV dye at the local automotive store. Get the one type made for engine oil or A/C leaks (i.e. no water):
  3. Same as above except fill the gap with silica (quartz) sand. We used to do that for "potting" discrete A/D converters that required thermal tracking between components across the PCB. You can find silica potting sand at any plant nursery except that the stuff is really coarse. For the amount you need for testing, just beating on it with a hammer should produce enough silica dust to fill the air gap. Use a face mask when handling the stuff. Seal 3 sides of the BGA chip with RTV, fill the air gap with sand, and seal the 4th side. No need for a leak detector.
  4. Use an FBGA socket. There's more mass closer to the package, which hopefully will act as a heat sink. It's probably one big impedance matching nightmare, but it's still worth a try.

trace.

Good plan, but I think filling the air gap with something thermally conductive will have a greater effect.

True.

If you wait long enough, everything else sags except the implants. At my age, I'll take anything I can get. Perception is everything and if that proves insufficient, just close your eyes and use your imagination.

My office purge has been procrastinated until Monday. It's too nice a day to waste at the office. Good luck on the audit. Be sure to leave something obvious and disgusting to distract the inspectors and give them something to complain about.

Thanks.

Cyclone III family package. FBGA package. Thermal resistance specs at:

32.4 degC/W from junction to ambient. 8.4 degC/W from junction to case. 15.6 degC/W from junction to base.

Using only the BGA package as a heat sink, in still air. However, that's not the case here because some of the heat is being removed by conduction through the PCB. Without the PCB heat sink and with 1.5 watts dissipation, the BGA case alone would run at: 25C + (1.5W * 32.4 C/W) = 73.6C

Since the case was measured at 60C, the PCB is acting as a heat sink, the junction temp at 1.5 watts is: (1.5W * 8.4C/W) + 60C = 72.6C

However, there are other devices nearby raising the ambient temperature and a PCB heat sink with an unknown temperature. I can't go much further some measurements. Got any numbers for:

  1. Average operating temperature of the PCB near the FPGA?
  2. Average operating temperature of the PCB away from the FPGA? With those, I can guess(tm) that thermal resistance of the PCB, which can the be compared to the various rubbery and foamy things to see if they will offer much of an improvement.

Agreed. With 8.4C/W on top, and 15.6C/W on the bottom, the hot spot will probably be even hotter UNDER the FPGA.

Dunno. Unfortunately, there's no room under the middle of the chip or I would suggest you leave a hole in the PCB dead center so that a syringe could be used to inject some manner of thermal compound as I previously suggested.

Work out the cost benefit ratios. Cleaning the office will gain how much new business and cost you how many hours of work? Fixing the thermal problem will salvage an irate customer, that offers existing business at how many more hours of work?

Anyway to run this thing with the FPGA turned off? Then, measure the average PCB temperature and the ambient room temperature for the approximate temperature rise produced by everything else. If you can't turn it off, maybe slow down the clock temporarily?

Also try a thin black LDPE (low density polyethylene) plastic trash bag. IR goes right through it. Start at 2:44 for the garbage bag. As a cover, there will be some thermal radiation through the plastic, but the hot air will remain inside the package.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann
Loading thread data ...

The PCB is screwed down to four 1/4" PEM spacers that are pressed into the extrusion. That solidly grounds the board and keeps it from flopping around.

But that doesn't transfer much heat.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

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Reply to
John Larkin

for the last 7 years or so intel's CPU heatsinks have attached to the PCB by means of expanding fasteners, (through holes in the PCB) until recently in they were tricky to set correctly and when setting them the PCB would visibly flex and creak alarmingly. more recently less force is used and they are easier to fit

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Reply to
Jasen Betts

Yeah, but heat pipes are like diodes for thermal energy, they only conduct heat in the vertical up direction, you can't cool the underside of anything with a heat pipe.

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Reply to
Jasen Betts

Yep. Sorry, I forgot about those because I don't see too many such Intel heat sinks. Mostly, I see Dell and other OEM machines, which use the same footprint, but with a backplate under the PCB or a molded plastic retainer system. For example: Note that Dell does not use Intel heat sinks or mounting methods:

I've also seen a retrofit mounting kit for the Intel fan, where the worthless push and turn locks are replaced by a backplate with projecting threaded studs or nuts. These are usually supplied with

3rd party heat sink kits such as: but are also available separately (except that I can't seem to find any right now).[1]

I haven't seen any problems that I could directly attribute to the flexing (or creaking) of the PCB with Intel heatsinks. However, I have had problems with the Intel fan. There is no shroud, so anything that gets near the fan is going to get shredded, or more commonly, break a blade. Without a shroud, there's going to be quite a bit of turbulence, which makes me wonder what problem Intel was trying to solve by removing the shroud.

I had some not very nice things to say about the original Intel inspired ATX case thermal design. This is from 13 years ago: Current packages and thermal management are better, mostly because CPU power dissipation has generally gone down:

[1] I was doing no-fan conversions for customers wanting to use a PC for listening to music or watching TV, where the fan noise would be objectionable. I don't do much of that any more because such PC's are available commercially, and because some manufacturers (i.e. Dell, Apple Mini, mini-ITX, etc) have gotten the clue and are supplying very quiet large diameter fans with their mini-tower cases.
--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

goo

They aren't actually quite that limited. They are not really density devices but do something different. Not really a phase change device either. It is some kind of viscosity thing i think.

?-)

Reply to
josephkk

Heat pipes boil a liquid at the hot end and condense it at the cold end. The liquid often returns via a wick. Wick types are not especially position sensitive.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
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Reply to
John Larkin

Probably acetoxy grade, and will release acetic acid when curing.

Use Dow-Corning 3145 (MIL-A-46146). Yes, it's expensive.

--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence  
over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." 
                                       (Richard Feynman)
Reply to
Fred Abse

My customer hasn't clarified the max environment. They just on Friday discovered a heat exchanger located in the enclosure, blowing cold air directly onto my box. Actually, I discovered it by communicating with the company in Germany that built the enclosure; said customer then looked for it and found it.

Their argument is that ambient could hit 40C (in a semiconductor fab!) and that the existing design has only 10C of chip temp margin (more hand waving, given

85C max chip temp) and that MTBF will be better if we lower the board temperature (can't argue with that one.)

Running what may be close to the final FPGA code, the FPGA hot spot gets about

36C above ambient. Adding the Bergquist pad reduces the rise to about 22. Their anticipated 10C margin becomes about 25. Just sticking what looks like a piece of foam into the gap below the board reduces the average board temp by about 15C.

This particular exercize is silly - I never thought we had a real problem - but the fix has been educational.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
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Reply to
John Larkin

I try to ignore much of the silly stuff you post, but this is just too much. To think that you have to cool the PCB rather than dealing with the problem as a system problem is pretty funny.

Most of the time you seem to be an intelligent engineer. But there are times you just want to shoot from the hip and not do any real analysis at all. Why is that such a problem in this case? Is it because your IR camera is just so much fun you want to use it as much as possible?

Have you figured out what case temperature you need to achieve? How do you know when you are done?

Jeff is trying to talk engineering to you...

--

Rick
Reply to
rickman

  1. >>

power

I don't think you will find the air gap to be a big problem. The BGA balls actually do a pretty good job of conducting to the board. The problem is that the board itself is a fairly good insulator even though it has some reasonably decent heat spreader layers inside. But without a goal in mind, we can't make a quantitative analysis that is useful.

Heat sink grease is *not* a good conductor of heat. It is used because it is typically used very *thinly* so the actual coefficient is not so important. Filling the gap won't do much better than the conduction of the balls which are *very* thermally conductive.

pad

trace.

low

How do you know if this is a good plan or not? What is the theta of the dogbone? All you can do is reduce it to zero. If the via is currently

20 C/W and there are a couple hundred of them, that is only a fraction of a degree. If the dogbone is 10 times more that is what, one degree?

True but largely irrelevant.

in

SPC,

I'm not sure you are using this correctly. If "junction to case" is used for the connection to the PCB, what does junction to base mean? I'd like to hear from Altera how these numbers are measured. Remember that all pathways are working in parallel.

The IR camera is ok, but it would be useful to measure air temp too.

Have you done this before? Do you have any data to show it is a significant improvement? I just can't see thermal compound being that much better than the BGA balls, but I could be wrong.

Without knowing the die temperature it is hard to have any idea how much good is being done by any changes.

That would be true if the PCB is acting as a good heat sink handling the majority of the heat. This may be a valid assumption, but that doesn't mean cooling the PCB is the best way of cooling the chip. I think it would be best to turn the board over in the case and use a thermal slug from the chip to the bottom of the case. Otherwise you will be fighting the thermal resistance of the PCB. From the pictures I've seen, turning the board over is zero cost since the case ends look to be symmetrical. Once you measure the die temp, you will be able to verify that this keeps the chip coolest.

--

Rick
Reply to
rickman

You are right about a fan making a big difference, but since we don't know how big a difference is required and we don't know how big a difference the fan will make, the only way to tell is to try it. But he had said he doesn't want a fan because of potential vibration problems, so...

--

Rick
Reply to
rickman

discovered

that

that

Their

but

I agree. All the talk of MTBF is a bit specious. The chips are rated for use up to 85°C, so why worry so much at anything below that? Is 20 year lifetime not good enough? Lots of things would be *better*, what is actually required? Sounds like the customer is doing "feel good" engineering.

I will say I'm surprised the gap filler is lowering the temps by 15°C. But then you are only moving 1.5 watts. Good thing this isn't putting out any real heat.

--

Rick
Reply to
rickman

power

The BGA balls are metal. Anything that you inject between the balls will have a thermal conductivity roughly 1/100 that of the solder ball material. Evem factoring in the area ratio, it won't help much.

It would be difficult to get the goo in there between the balls, and it would make inspection and rework very difficult.

The heat path is mainly ball-dogbone-via-copper plane.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
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Reply to
John Larkin

Various thermal resistances are in series, from the heat sources to ambient. One big thermal resistance in that stack is from the PCB itself to ambient. The PCB is fairly isothermal (lots of copper planes) and the case is close to ambient. Theta from PCB to case is roughly 5 K/w, and the Bergquist pad cuts that about in half. The pad reduces chip temps by about 15C. The Laird sandwich is better, but not as practical.

What's silly about that?

I've done a bunch of measurements on this situation and have real numbers, and a decent fix for the problem. How would you do "real analysis" on a thing like this?

Even if I had $50K worth of thermal FEA software, I don't have all the required thermal models. And if I did, the problem would probably take weeks to set up.

I'm done when the customer quits being afraid about the FPGA temperature. The Bergquist drop-in gap filler, with about a 15C drop in Tj, seems to have made them very happy.

I'm doing engineering, and I have quantitative results.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
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Reply to
John Larkin

discovered

that

that

about

Their

piece

but

There is concern about MTBF and about timing closure. With the current design, the Altera tools claim closure to 85C, but that's the highest temp it "allows" for this Cyclone chip, so we don't know what the actual timing failure temp is. So the customer wants 85C.

So were we. It's a good thing to know.

The board dissipates about 6.5 watts, maybe 8 under improbably worst-case conditions. The PCB surface was running 30, 35 C above case temp.

Good thing this isn't putting

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

Adding a fan would require mounting, wiring, hardware, stuff impossible to do in the field. Fans fail, too. The Bergquist pad is great: undo the four board mounting screws, lift the board, drop the pad into the box, replace the board and screws. Instant 15C drop.

I sort of figured these numbers would be useful to people. I suppose not.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

off

One

PCB

better,

You are assuming that the only way to cool the chips is to cool the board. That is simply not true. Also your board is not isothermal or even close to it, but that is not a hugely bad assumption given that the thermal resistances cooling the board are so high.

But your initial assumption is the poor part, that all the thermal resistances are in series. There are many thermal paths with possibly higher resistance, but why not try to lower some of those?

a

I haven't seen any mention of a goal, so how does anyone know if it is "fixed"?

required

You can do the model in a spreadsheet!

How do you turn that into numbers? Oh, I see, you aren't doing engineering, you are doing psychotherapy.

Ok. I not really trying to give you a hard time, but you just don't seem interesting in actually engineering the problem, you just guessed at an approach and came up with something that did something useful without ever even describing the problem in a way that allowed anyone to know when the goal was met.

Ok, fine. Well done!

--

Rick
Reply to
rickman

discovered

that

that

given

about

Their

piece

but

is.

I never saw you post a die temperature of the chip. Do you know what it was and what it is now?

Yes, a night light is 7 Watts. If you confine it with a paper cup on top it gets very warm, enough to melt plastic as I found out once. Any small amount of thermal conduction will keep the temps much lower.

--

Rick
Reply to
rickman

I found it useful. Thanks. Your IR imager was very telling. Have you taken an after image with the pad installed?

tm

Reply to
tm

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