Switching +/-12V from 6/0V

I'm embarrassed to say I don't know how to do this. I guess I've been away from transistors too long. Well, I know how to do it with a relay, but would prefer to stay away from mechanical stuff and pitted contacts if I can.

The project is a personal project - a button pusher for the remote controller of a camcorder (which also takes still pictures). I'll use it to do time-lapse still photography, with an interval of from

5 seconds to one minute or more..

The button pusher itself is a 12V solenoid, with a DC resistance of about 100 ohms. The timing circuit is powered by +6VDC provided by four C cells. Since the solenoid really does need a full 12V to pull in properly against the resistance of the button, I've concluded that a typical voltage doubler won't quite work - because of the diode drops, etc.

But as luck would have it, I happen to have a MAX232 chip in the junque box, and it produces +/-10V outputs from the 6V supply. And I've found that if I connect a 220 ufd capacitor across the +10 and

-10 outputs, the MAX232 will charge it up to near the full 20V in about 3 seconds, which is quick enough. Then, I connect the solenoid across the capacitor, which then discharges suddenly, and that's enough get the solenoid to pull in and push the button.

But now I need to get the timing circuit to make that connection, driven from the Output pin (pin 3) of a 555 timer, which switches between nearly +6VDC and 0V. To complicate things further, as the capacitor discharges, the voltages on its leads with respect ot gound rapidly collapse from +/-12V, and end up, oddly enough, at about -4.5VDC.

I tried using two transistors to do this. The 555 Output drives the gate of an NPN, with the emitter grounded. The collector of the NPN sinks the base of a PNP, with the emitter connected to +12V, and the collector connected through the solenoid to the -12V lead of the capacitor. And that kinda works. Of course it only lets the cap discharge to ground (because the emitter of the NPN is at ground). So the button push is really short, and I'm not sure it's going to be long enough to be reliable.

I had thought about triggering an SCR gate through a capacitor, but the current never actually stops - the MAX232 still produces juice, so turning the SCR off might be a problem.

I had also though about driving an NPN base through a capacitor, but am concerned about the rapidly rising voltage on the emitter as the big cap discharges. I think this would cut off the current flow early, and possibly damage the 555.

Well, it may just be that a relay is the way to go. I even have one in the junque box. But if anyone knows of an elegant-but-cheap, non-relay solution for this, please post.

Thanks very much for any help.

Reply to
George
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Sounds like you need an opto-isolator, so you can drag the base of the PNP down to -10v. Don't forget the base resistor to keep it from burning up ;-)

Reply to
DJ Delorie

Before you do all this, see if there is software available from the camcorder manufacturer that lets you control it from a PC via a USB or Firewire connection. I looked at solenoids at the Digikey web site, and they all looked like overkill. Tam

Reply to
Tam/WB2TT

Just a relay will work. De-energized, it slaps a capacitor across the

6 volt supply and charges it up. When you pull it in, it stacks the cap on top of the supply and makes 12 volts into your solenoid. One little DPDT relay will do it.

I did that for a lady friend once. She wanted to make an appearance at a picnic, so she had a new green Porsche air-freighted in from Germany. And she bought a loud da-dah-lah air horn set to announce her arrival. But the Porsche was 6 volts, and the horn was 12. So we did the relay doubler thing, with a 6-volt Honda battery instead of the capacitor.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

The MAX232 chip has two drivers which have TLL level inputs and swing close to the rails of its generated bipolar supply.

The drivers are inverting so if you have a +ve pulse from the 555 you could drive the base of a PNP transistor via a limiting resistor (you may need a pull up on the base to ensure the transistor is completely off when it is supposed to be).

I suggest you try two big capacitors on the MAX232 'reservoir capacitors (the ones connected to GND and VDD) and keep the two pump capacitors at 1uF or whatever is recommended for the MAX232.

Keep the driving pulse width as narrow as possible, if the initial surge isn't enough to press the button dumping the rest of falling capacitor charge into it isn't going to help just waste battery.

Remember to put diode across the solenoid to prevent an inductive kick when you turn it off.

Reply to
nospam

Did the 12V solenoid come with the 6V system? If so, how are they getting

12V?

Anyway, if you can ground the negative output of your voltage doubler, then connect its positive output to the hot side of the solenoid, and connect the low side of the solenoid to the anode of an SCR. Put a reverse diode across the solenoid, of course. Fire it with about a 1K from the output of the 555, but make sure that the output pulse is short enough so that the SCR commutates when the cap discharges. (IOW, as the current through the solenoid decreases, it's shunted by the diode, so if the trigger goes away soon enough, as soon as the solenoid runs out of magnetic field, the SCR will be off again.

Have Fun! Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

Well, actually, what I'm using used to be a relay, not a solenoid officially. I found it in a coffee can full of junque, and its contact travel is a perfect match for the button, and it was easy to mount. So the whole design has pretty much revolved around that find.

I had thought about controlling things from a laptop, and I assume it's possible, but would really rather not have to do that if I can avoid it.

Reply to
George

Damn. I would never have thought of that. But it should work. Then I wouldn't have to worry with the MAX232 at all.

The only thing is - with the solenoid being so goosey about needing enough voltage, it may stop working pretty quickly as the batteries get used up and the doubled voltage drops below 12V. The MAX232 version should continue to work even if the batteries are way down.

Anyway, thanks very much for the suggestion. Am actual relay-switched charge pump. Who woulda thunk it? :-)

Reply to
George

I haven't tried this yet, but the problem may be that the outputs are current-limited due to the RS-232 spec for maximum current draw on a short. So even if there's enough charge in the caps, I didn't think it would flow freely to the transmit outputs. The datasheet I have says the output resistance is 300 ohms, and the short-circuit output current is +/- 10 ma.

What I have now is 10 ufd caps in all four of the usual places. Then I have the one big cap between the two transmit outputs, with one output high and one low. Even with current limiting, the big cap will charge in about three seconds.

Reply to
George

if too short use a larger capacitor.

your circuit discharges the capacitor from both ends so switching one end only shouldn;'t be a problem.

or try this. ------------------+- +10 | +6 --+------------+- | | | | | + | [1k] / | | |/ | +--[10k]--|~ PNP / |\\ load |/ \\ -[10k]--| NPN + | |\\| | | ~\\ | + | [1K] / -----+--- 0V | |/ +---| NPN | |\\| 100K ~\\ | | +------+-- -10

Bye. Jasen

Reply to
Jasen Betts

I think the clean way is to use the camcorder as a camera only, and have the laptop capture a frame every x seconds on to your hard drive. You probably can't record single frames of video to tape anyhow; so, you have to use the still camera mode. This will require software to change the single pictures into video. That same program could have the option of doing time lapse directly.

Tam

Reply to
Tam/WB2TT

Ok, thanks very much, Jasen. Yes, I think this is gonna do it. Three transistors work.

But I'm confused by the 1k resistor at the upper left. It looks like it just needlessly dumps current through the NPN. Wouldn't this work as well and use less power?

Thanks again.

George

Reply to
George

That's kind of optional, but good practice, to turn the NPN securely OFF.

You could also do something like this: +10v R1 --- input >--[1k]---. | | Q1 +------+ '>| PNP | | |---. [load] | /| | | | | --- +-|>|--+ D1 | GND | | |/ +------------| Q2 R2 | |>. NPN [10k] | | | +--------------+--- -10v

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
James Arthur

yes, that's a better way.

Bye. Jasen

Reply to
Jasen Betts

Oops, make that "PNP," not NPN!

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
James Arthur

Saw your later update where you changed to PNP, that's not why I'm posting.

How are you going to turn the NPN on without that resistor?

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

Thanks very much. So it WAS possible to do it with two transistors - you just have to know how. :-)

I ended up using your configuration, James, but with resistors in different places to reduce switching current:

+10v --- input >---------. Q1 | (+6V/GND) | PNP +------+ '>| | | |-[47k]-. [load] | /| R1 | | | | --- +-|>|--+ D1 | GND | | R2 |/ +-[10k]-+----| Q2 | |>. NPN R3 [470k] | | | +------+--- -10v

And it works fine. Actually, it works fine without R3, but it doesn't hurt to have it there.

Just in case someone else might ever want to do this, I'll document it with a schematic and pics and post them, probably in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic, unless there's a better group where binaries are permitted. I'll use a subject of something like "Button Pusher for Time-Lapse Photography (was: Switching +/-12V from 6/0V)".

Thanks very much for everyone's help with this. I really appreciate it. It's really great when things actually work in the end. :-)

Reply to
George

Fig. 1

------

I think you must be looking at the 1k base resistor to the NPN output transistor (Q3). I've taken the liberty of labelling that resistor 'R4' above.

I took "upper left" 1k resistor to mean the R2, collector load for the input NPN transistor (Q1), the resistor George moved to the base of the PNP (Q2) and changed to 100k (in Fig. 2, below). This guy's purpose, then, is to turn the _PNP_ (got it right this time!) securely off.

Cheers, James Arthur

Fig. 2

------

Reply to
James Arthur

You're missing a few details, that circuit is marginal for this application. Something more along the lines of this is better than "fine": View in a fixed-width font such as Courier.

. . . +6V . - . R2| +10v . R1 [47k] --- . input >---[1k]--. | | . (+6V/GND) | | +------+ . '>| |1N914A | | . Q1 |-+-|>|-. [load] | . PNP /| | | | . | --- +-|>|--+ D1 . | GND | . | |/ . +------------| Q2 . R3| |>. NPN . [1k] | . | | . '--------------+--- -10v . . .

Reply to
Fred Bloggs

That'll work fine if your load is light enough. Using 10k for R2 will supply Q2 with about 1.6mA of base drive, enough as long as your load is less than, say 150mA. (Thinking your load might be a bit heavier, I drove Q2 harder.)

On the other hand, you could achieve the same effect with my original circuit by changing my R1 to (6v-Vbe(Q1))/1.6mA = 3.3k ohms. The resulting circuit will present the same load to the 555 driver, switch a lot faster (which you don't care about), and save you a resistor!

Cheers! James Arthur

Reply to
James Arthur

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