Super massive black hole winds are 100 times more powerfull than scientists thought

Old McDonald snipped-for-privacy@patch.corn wrote or quoted:

Mass cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be moved.

(Therefore, gravitational waves always have only a quadru- pole moment, never a monopole moment.)

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.electronics.design,sci.astro Followup-To: sci.physics

I confess. I began writing some crap, and just abandoned it. Then, noticed that you blew it big-time.

I saw no easy way for you to fix it. This is excellent, the 'tracked with usual speed of light delay' is magic.

Hold on, the magic is gone. The mass is really slow. The curvature can be slow. I don't see delay, or speed of light, anywhere. And did you just call me an idiot?

I claimed that the effects of mass's *movement* propagate, and the effects of its *existence* are... I'll say static. Stable. All done, the fabric has sags in it. Curvature and Waves are two different things. The waves are little ripples, which pass quickly. Do think they bring gravity with them, and leave it behind when they're gone?

Then your physical intuitions need work.

Not exactly. Expressing something in a way that is clear enough to be idiot-proof is a kind of ideal, though it can lead to remarkably verbose expressions.

You do seem to be taking the whole question remarkably seriously which suggests a nutcase rather than an idiot, but at lot the people who post here are various kinds of nutcase so I wouldn't take the accusation all that seriously.

You can't observe gravity, only its effects.

Gravity waves are detected by they interference they produce in the propagation of laser beams. The system can detect tiny changes in the beam propagation distance - some small fraction of the diameter of a proton.

If a spherical mass somehow popped out of existance, you'd get a spherically symmetric wave of not-gravity moving at the speed of light in all directions.

Fun.

John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics

Mass/energy is conserved. Particle pairs do "pop up" but that's the uncertainty principle in action. Masses anybody could notice don't.

The first black hole fusion observed by LIGO turned some three solar masses of black hole into gravitational radiation (which is a form of energy) and it did propagate away at the speed of light.

By the time is got to us it changed the path length traversed by the LIGO detector lasers by small faction of the diameter of a proton.

One would suppose that it is affected by the local geometry of spacetime in the same way as electromagnetic radiation. Someone should explain to us how it gets away once the merger is in its ringdown phase, when all mass is presumably contained within a single event horizon.

Jeroen Belleman

Curvature is geometry, it has no mass. No inertia. Unless tracking is immediate, delays should start to add up. Does your gravity sometimes go just a little bit faster than light?

Nutcase is fine.

Old McDonald snipped-for-privacy@patch.corn wrote or quoted:

Gravity waves have mass.

Imagine a pair of black holes. The pair has momentum p and mass m. We choose a reference frame where p=0. So the whole energy of the pair now is mass, E=m in units with c=1.

Now the pair emits gravity waves. As momentum is conserved, the momentum p of the system holes+waves still is 0, so E=m is still valid. E is conserved, and when E=m, mass is conserved. As the mass of the holes is reduced, the rest of the mass now is mass of the waves, mass of the curvature if you like. That's why gravitons are deemed to be self-interacting.

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.electronics.design,sci.astro Followup-To: sci.physics

From the link, "When a gravitational wave passes through the interferometer, the spacetime in the local area is altered."

But has anyone measured the speed of gravity that is already here? Is there no gravity, without ripples? Without mass acceleration? If not, curvature isn't doing much. Nothing.

The mass might be contained within the event horizon, but energy - as in Hawking radiation - does get out. When the two black holes fused quite a lot of energy got out as gravitational waves, despite having been enclosed by two event horizons before the fusion, and one after it.

The event horizon, if it exists, is thought of as the limit from which *nothing* can get out, neither mass, nor radiation. Evidently, about three solar masses of energy did get radiated away. Either the source of that radiation was not actually inside the event horizon, or there is no such thing as an event horizon.

As for Hawking radiation, that requires particles with negative energy, which have never been observed yet.

Jeroen Belleman

And if they stay on the black hole side of the event horizon, they never will.

Gravity doesn't travel. Waves of "gravity", traveling at the speed of light, distort the spacetime within them, and gravity, which is already there in that spacetime, is distorted with it. I want to know, why is gravity already there?

Gravity doesn't attract mass, or anything else. Gravity repels. Where spacetime curves, like a bubble around an object, that object, and others nearby, are repelled by the curvature toward the bubble's center, which is coincident with the objects' center of mass.

• Gravity repels.
• It's always there, as long as curvature is there.
• Curvature is there as long as mass is there.

To parody your claim.

Electricity doesn't travel. Electromagentic waves, travelling at the speed of light distort the space time they pass through, and electric charge which is already there in that spacetime, is distorted with it.

You want to know why gravity (or electric charge) is already there.

You want to learn what you are talking about, rather wasting time constructing meaningless sentences.

Gravity is what we call the force that draws adjacent masses towards one another. It is an attractive force

And pigs might fly.

Only if you redefine the word gravity is a remarkably unhelpful way.

And the usenet is full of trolls.

At the speed of light in copper. And that's the electromotive force. Not electrons, those progress along at a snail's pace.

Charge already there in the metal is... not-charge (Thanks, Larkin). Neutral.

I constructed a mirror image of the mechanism that everyone else describes, and it works just as well. Better, in fact. I wrote that the spacetime *within* waves is distorted, as well as gravity already there in that spacetime. I first wrote spacetime *around* waves, but that implies there's some distance for gravity to travel. Distance outside of distorted spacetime. And at a speed. I got rid of distance. So, no speed is necessary. I simplified the mechanism.

I'm not included in that "we". You are.

Waves of spacetime distortion, not waves of gravity, produce the effects detected by the interference pattern.