'standard' NDA

Oct 02, 2019 160 Replies

Most software is not "engineered" in any real sense (and for that matter most "engineering" is not engineered either). Most "software engineers" cannot adequately even define what they mean by "engineering".

My definition: engineering is solving problems by applying known (measured) properties of available resources in a way that provides a guarantee that certain outcomes will always be met, despite any natural variation in the properties of those resources. So when a structural engineer specifies a certain steel beam to support some load, they take into account the specified load, the way the beam will be supported, and the known properties of steel and of the type of beam specified.

The meaning of "properties of resources" in software is the properties of storage devices, operating systems, databases, data structures and the algorithms that implement operations on them. These properties are almost only ever specified in the "happy path", and seldom if ever is the worst-case behaviour specified. Instead, subsystems and libraries are designed to avoid catastrophic worst cases (polynomial or exponential runtimes, for example) - O(N*logN) is the worst that's allowed without prior warning.

In any case software writers seldom know or consider these properties, they just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. The same way the structural engineer doesn't actually calculate the steel beam, they just look it up in a table.

A former colleague trained first as a mech eng because he loved solving the mathematical problems. During his first year working, he realised that never in his career would he get to actually *use* the mathematical analyses that he loved, so he went back to school and qualified in CS. That's the kind of guy you want writing software for you (but they're rare)!

So CS courses do actually teach the required analysis, and in my experience software writers do have some awareness of it, but only enough to avoid using pathological algorithms. For the most part the difficult algorithms are implemented in infrastructure code, and very few people are competent to write that. (though many others try, and they succeed only because spectacular computing power hides the fundamental weakness of their code).

And then there's *systems* engineering, which is what happens when more than one organisation works together to produce some system that's larger than any of them could do by themselves. This brings in a raft of human factors like clear communication, change management, etc. This too can be engineered to some extent, but the vast majority of software people never really find themselves in such a situation - and the Agile movement is all about avoiding it. The one exceptional case is embedded software, where you have a hardware team and a software team, and neither can do what the other can. Our immaturity at systems engineering explains the parlous state of embedded software.

I *think* I understand that response. Modern CS is about *derivation*, not about construction of step-by-step algorithms that perform some derivation. By "derivation" I mean that for every current-state and event there is an algebraic expression that derives next-state. This is the basic idea behind functional programming. Every derivation is a "function" that takes one parameter (current state) and by applying the function, produces the next state. The compiler is responsible for finding an algorithm to efficiently compute each function.

"Programming" then becomes the job of the compiler. The coder must find a way to express their computation algebraically, and the compiler does the rest. Haskell is perhaps the best examplar of this.

Clifford Heath.

I don't think PID and similar control theory is taught to software types (like me)... and in fact I don't think it was, when I was back in college decades ago. My guess is that it's been seen as being a "hardware engineering" discipline, as that's where it started. A lot of process control implementation has moved from pure-hardware to microprocessor-firmware, but the knowledge of the control algorithms didn't make the jump between disciplines as easily.

I've had to learn it by independent reading, studying, and hobby projects. It's been useful knowledge... I've encountered quite a few "software" situations where a simple PID implementation was the right choice, and the software developers hadn't ever even heard of the concept.

I can put it up as a PDF if anybody wants.

I figured it would be easier to rip as a .DOCX.

ake you up on that. Maybe on dropbox? Or my email (now) is ggherold@gmail .com

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I kinda lucked out in that regard. I got a contract developing a custom bo ard for a company who didn't want to bother with something that would make so little money. The guy who was head of this product line made the case f or farming it out and they sprung for the various testing required to sell it in their product line. Sales are *very* sporadic, but pays well when th ey order more than a few hundred, very well. Technically they own the righ ts, but unless it becomes part of a $100 million a year product line they a ren't going to worry about taking it back from me. So I mark it up big tim e and they mark it up even further. It bought me my Tesla and much more.

I think I'd like to have a few products to help even out the flow, but I'm not sure it wouldn't still be very sporadic and possibly worse with everyth ing demanding my attention at once sometimes.

Essentially this is a rather niche product. A nice place to be. Ask JL.

I'd like to tutor math for high school or maybe college. Math concepts wer e always hard for me to figure out because the teachers didn't speak the ri ght language for me to get it. I like to think I understand what the conce pts are that the kids don't get and can be better at teaching it. A friend talked me into pursuing being a sub once. Not only does it not pay beans, they require a lot of background checking and it is all about when they ne ed you with last minute calls, literally. Still, it might be interesting. If I settle down somewhere maybe I'll look into that.

Rick C. -- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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Control theory isn't synchros and LVDTs. Those are just gadgets, the theor y is math. Hopefully the math can be applied to the gadgets, but that's no t control theory.

I took digital design classes and they could not care the least bit about t eaching any of the practical aspects of designing with logic. I was in my first job and no one seemed to know diddly about transmission line theory. They had a 25 MHz wire wrapped TTL backplane gadget that they had trouble getting to work reliably. They treated it like 25 MHz was a magic upper li mit. At my next job they were building stuff running at 25 MHz, two rack c abinets of it with massive wire wrap backplanes. They got it to work mostl y, but had to tune the clock lines because their timing was so tight one bo ard would need to be slightly advanced while another board in the same slot would need to be slightly retarded relative to the rest of the chassis. I t made field service a bitch. Not many in the company actually knew what w as going on with all this because everything was a closely guarded secret. But they didn't have problems with reflections and such. They used twiste d pair for the clock lines. In fact, cutting length out of the clock lines was how they "tuned" the machine to make them work.

The next generation had serpentine clock traces on the boards so they could use on board jumpers to make all the boards match and be interchangeable l ike they should. I'm not sure where the variations came from, perhaps the on board clock buffers??? It was not too long after that chip makers start ed making PLL clock distribution chips... maybe 5 years or so. About the t ime bit slice became old technology because everything would fit on a singl e chip... like the 486. lol This would have been early 80s. I'm not sure I can correlate all the timing of events. I've always been fuzzy with his tory.

Rick C. -+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Oct 2, 2019, John Larkin wrote (in article):

a degree in Computer Science (this is circa 1980 - the field had just been invented, and there were things I wanted to learn), there was a Servomechanisms course offered, but was not listed as an allowed distribution-requirement course for CS.

So I went to the Dean, and asked him to authorize this course, pointing out that Servomechanisms was not exactly Basketweaving. He laughed, and signed. It was a very good, and useful, course.

More seriously, no Computer Science graduate not also having an EE or Physics background (including Linear Systems) would have survived that Servomechanisms course.

Joe Gwinn

ake you up on that. Maybe on dropbox? Or my email (now) is ggherold@gmail .com

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It never hurts to put things in a contract, unless they hurt to be put in. But it's a given that something in the public domain is not confidential. You can talk about the "thing" just not that it relates to the NDA project , company, etc. That's even true for government classified material. You can't confirm that anything is true, but you can certainly say so-and-so re ported this even if it is exactly the info you are not allowed to divulge.

History is seldom of interest to anyone. There has to be a 10,000 feet way of explaining you aren't an a-hole.

Rick C. +- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

y they

sist on it, I walk. (I've had to walk as many as three times in an ultimate ly-successful negotiation.)

nk of my brain.

Why? What is the reason for them releasing their technology after some per iod of time?

Rick C. ++ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

bitrex wrote in news:QG8lF.25945$ snipped-for-privacy@fx03.iad:

And Apple.

The first iPhone was a friggin MP3 player stretched and given phone parts.

The touch interface is what got the win. Now the world has changed and they are all touch and hundreds of thousands of man-hours is wasted by folks walking around production floors with a phone in their face.

When I was a kid, my mom would not even think about calling my dad on the phone at his work, unless it was a full blown emergency.

Now, the bosses are among the idiots walking around workplace environments showing something on their phone to someone else, essentially doubling the time wasted.

How quaint.

If by "just" you mean in the previous two decades...

Mind you, it was apparent that the term "software engineering" was new and the professors were scrabbling to find material to make up a course. Most of what we were taught in SW Eng was introductory systems eng, in fact. As far as I can tell they hadn't figured out what it meant to engineer software yet, and this was at a top-50-globally CS dept.

I finished my CS degree in 1979, when CS was still part of the Maths dept, so I studied math and quantum physics through 2nd year. Funnily enough I also arranged an exemption to earn credit from an EE unit in digital sequential logic design. That involved getting the EE and CS departments to talk for the first time - they've been merged for a couple of decades now.

I daresay I was one of the few with enough calculus to have done control theory (though I wouldn't have done very well) but there were still some. It might have been different in the USA, or just at your university. I tried to persuade my (now 29yo) son to find a control theory course as part of his double degrees in Math and CS, but it wasn't available in either CS or Math (though CS is now in the Eng faculty, CS folk don't do it). Control Theory was far too "applied" for the snooty Math folk to care about.

Clifford Heath.

John Larkin wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

There are $400k watches out there. More even.

Precision micro-machining and engravature and the surface finishes are not easy to accomplish, and do not come cheap.

There are high priced quartz watches out there to. The real snazzy ones we call 'smart phones' and they do not even use quartz clocks any more. They use gps.

My younger sister made one of the things she 'invested in' the purchase of cases of expensive wines. Which then sold for as much as four times what she paid for them. She said it was easier to make money on it than buying art in the form of paintings. She said the turn around was a lot faster too.

America's hidden big investment: Invest in the stupidity of the dopes who got rich enough to wildly spend all in the name of status.

Steve Wilson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

When one 'opens' it in dropbox, it shows up. Then one can DL it.

Thing is, I am not sure that your converter works on DOCX files, which is what this is. It is not a DOC file. It is a DOCX file.

It should though, being a modern website. Give up all rights to the document though probably.

What got the win was that the iPhone was fully integrated with capabilities shared across the phone and the rest of the unit with PDA capabilities. T he only combined phone and PDA at that point was the Palm crap which might as well have been a phone and a Palm Pilot duct taped together. There was literally ZERO communications between the two. Even I expected the durn th ing to not just show me a phone number from the contact list, but to be abl e to hand it to the phone and DIAL which the Palm phone couldn't do!!!

Very different times. What was right then doesn't need to be right now.

Yeah, it's amazing how all these productivity features allow us to get any work done at all.

Are you 82 and waving a cane at the computer as someone else types on it fo r you?

Rick C. --- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

bitrex wrote in news:_NalF.2982$ snipped-for-privacy@fx23.iad:

Still that way.

The dopes simply use 'modular' pre-coded bits now, and the "programming acumen" is for those able to compose within those modular realms well. Still, one has to know how to construct(good)error handling routines.

Rick C wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Bullshit. There are articles all over the net about how much time is wasted.

Someone making a crack like that has no clue, much less any credence on the subject.

If I ran a lab, the phones would be in your locker.

Tell your stupid kids that their 'emergency' phone calls are to be made to your desk phone number, not your cell.

Period.

We had secret level labs where one could not have ANY record capable device. Even a pencil. Even a piece of paper.

Rick C wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Walking an aisle with your face in a phone on your way to interrupt yet another worker's time instead of being at your bench is decidedly counterprodcutive.

No. I have used and programmed personal computers since the XT on. I was working on a mainframe prior to that.

You must be wearing horse blinders, and it matters not what your age is as you stand before men, blind.

>

I think it's a wonderful time to get into programming, far better than when I first took a shot at it in the 1990s. At the time your language choices were more or less C, C++, Lisp...Python may have existed but it wasn't much to write home about.

C, C++ and Lisp are challenging languages for adult students, much less

17 and 18 year olds. And the adults who tend to be the most skilled in those languages are often not particularly good at teaching them. There are some kids who seem to be "naturals" in any field but most are not.

To do well in a CS program you have to be pretty good in your didactic languages of choice and at 17 I was not a particularly good C programmer. I was a s*it C programmer back then actually. What the f*ck did I know about anything at 17, though?

It took until the Internet was more common that I came across what I consider to be like, actual good how-to-program what-is-pointer? material.

I agree 100%... bullshit.

There are many, many reasons why you don't run a lab. Your BS makes me think of the MaliciousCompliance videos.

Who has desk phones anymore. Hell, I don't even have a desk!

You are living in the 50s... if you call what you do living.

No pencil, no paper... no work?

Ok, I'm ready for it. Call me a "child". Oh, I'm so hurt... boo, hoo.

Rick C. --+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

There is a ton of work available for STEM tutors at all levels. you could probably make a decent living just tutoring ARM assembly all day to college students, judging by some of the requests I see on contract tutoring sites.

Prefer adult students if it's on a piecemeal basis. I....I dunno if you have the patience to tutor high school and college students. My girlfriend does it for the university as an adjunct and she's one of the most even-tempered people I know but "the kids these days" are gonna frustrate and get inside your head, and when you're associated with a university or brick-and-mortar tutoring company (i.e. getting paid a decent "regular" salary to do it) you can't just eject the real brats.

Yes, exactly, the cane it is... "You kids get off my lawn!"

Rick C. -+- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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