Solar panel related question -- help please

And the cost of removing and reinstalling the panels when you need roof repair. Some of the leaks will be caused by the panels themselves.

And the medical costs when you fall off the roof trying to clean the panels.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

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in least sunny month.(kWh/sq m/day)

Great ! Where can I buy one ?? Oh... That's right ! you can't buy any of these.

This kind of stuff is always showing up on the internet. If it has any kind of promise, it is most likely not in our lifetime.

(I hope I am wrong)

boB

Back when stimulus money was flowing like water down a rat hole, I talked to a number of solar vendors. None of the offerings stood up to simple questions.

The best looking one was a lease program. You saved money on your electric bill and used that difference to pay the lease and you came out ahead. No-Brainer...but wait. Do you base it on actual savings? NO, it's predetermined assuming you were one of the first 20 people out of the 10,000 who applied for the subsidy within milliseconds of the offering. And there was no guarantee that it would be available next year. Took me half an hour of probing the vague deflected answers to get to that point.

I asked for the free site audit...they must have lost my application.

Never trust the numbers from anyone who's trying to sell you something.

Talking to actual owners is way better...if you can find them. But that's not foolproof. The placebo effect is very strong. When I had my house weatherized, I noticed a great savings in energy. Over time, as I settled back into my old ways, the savings decreased. And I actually measured it. Most people are just guessing and feel better if their guesses support their decisions.

There were a lot of weatherization subsidies. I'm sure it's better for the planet, and the children, but based on the payback period, I'd probably not have done it on my own dime.

Same for solar. It's great if you can get someone else to pay for it.

radiation in least sunny month.(kWh/sq m/day)

Problem with solar is that it takes too much space. Even at 100%, it's still too big to be practical...until we scale back demand about a hundred years.

Anybody with half a brain has invested their life savings in Ecat.

radiation in least sunny month.(kWh/sq m/day)

You can put that in the same category as the those ripoff hydrogen generation modules claiming to boost gas mileage- power for electrolysis derived from alternator- mmm yeah.

radiation in least sunny month.(kWh/sq m/day)

m)

%

Yeah, if Watt-peak is 75W at 1000 W/m^2, then it will be 37.5 Watt-peak at 500 W/m^2. According to you it is 18.75.

I ran into the same issue when back when they were pushing hot water solar heating systems. The sell was slick but getting real information was really hard. Lotsa glowing references, though. The neighbor bought a system (three panels, IIRC). It was off the house within three years.

I'm surprised you got that answer. I had to chase them around the flag pole many times to figure out what scam they were pulling. Turns out it was right out of Abbot and Costello (13 donuts).

Or politicians (same thing, I suppose).

As you point out above, can you be sure they're going to be so willing to pay for it, for the *expected* life of the system. Note that the seller is getting his money up-front. He's not waiting for 20 years.

A VERY, VERY interesting paper! But, it seems that they have the antenna fabrication pretty well worked out, but no work on the MIM diodes has been done. So, no practical device has been built or tested.

Jon

radiation in least sunny month.(kWh/sq m/day)

MANY people live off-grid using mainly PV and they have saved a lot of money by not getting grid installed. So it just depends on the situation. If you are in town with < $0.01 per kW-hour of electricity, then of course is doesn't make a lot of sense unless you just want to "feel good" about what you are doing... OR, if you want power backup.

boB

Well, most people should not be doing this work themselves. They should also be wearing the correct restraints while on the roof, which also should really be done while putting up antennas or any work on the roof.

And mounting PV on poles if there is enough room is much better than on a roof because they cool better.

boB

Jeff, I don't care what they say about you here, I think you're alright.

BTW, I am a real habit sort of guy, but I gave up uuF a long time ago. I *am* just recently getting used to nF however.

Rick

If you are off-grid, then you have to deal with energy STORAGE, usually batteries, and that can become a substantial task. Years ago, when the last Diesel submarine fleet was being downsized, vast arrays of Ni-Cd batteries were available cheaply, but that was a couple decades ago.

Also, where can you get electricity for 1 cent / KWh? In a lot of the US it is now closer to 10 Cents/KWh.

Jon

About 1500 watts per square meter max in the Arizona desert.

1000 watts per square meter less clouds and tracking typical elsewhere. About 3 to 5 watthours max daily per panel watt.

Translates to 80 watts peak per square panel meter at the synchronous inverter terminals at best.

Not one NET watthour of solar electricity has EVER been produced. Taken as a total to date, pv is simply a gasoline destroying scam.

Easily proven by equating current dimes and kilowatt hours. As the power utilities clearly do.

Net pv energy breakeven can be anticipated eight to ten years after the panel price drops under twenty five cents per peak watt. The best utility pricing today is three times this, the best consumer over ten times.

But prices are presently in free fall.

A consumer synchronous inverter typically today will consume 150 percent or more of the value of the electricity sent through it.

For a while there, the number of pv and other solar bankruptcies was approaching one per day.

The usual mistake made by epsilon minuses claiming net pv payback is counting subsidies as a 1X asset, rather than as a 5X liability that includes the "iceberg effect" of true collection and distribution costs.

Additional details at

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Don Lancaster                          voice phone: (928)428-4073 
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Actually, Garret Moddell and his Idaho group has been very active in the MIM field. In fact, I think a 2011 or 2010 paper examines the issue and concludes that using existing nano antenna with MIM diodes work in tapping energy from the far infra-red part of the spectrum, at near infra-red, Mother Nature takes over, and skin and effects become so dominant that rectification is very poor.

radiation in least sunny month.(kWh/sq m/day)

m)

6.2 %

W/m^2. According to you it is 18.75.

The factor of 2 arises from the FF, and my main question is whether it is valid to include it in the computation.

at 500 W/m^2. According to you it is 18.75.

Insofar as sizing the panels for the required output, it has nothing to do with anything. That kind of thing is only important for MPP trackers. Same goes for the unnecessary inclusion of the active area. What could be simple r than multiplying the daily irradiation energy density per m^2 by the rate d panel output power per unit of that irradiation density (1000 w/m^2)? Tha t's all you need.

d

The technology for distributed energy generation of all types, including fo ssil fuels, are all antiquated failures. The solar mirror farms that focus huge amounts of solar thermal to a concentrator boiler to power steam drive turbines which power electrical generators is a viable technology. This ge ts piped at HVDC onto the grid. The grid distributes the energy- no emissio ns of any kind and vast amounts of existing infrastructure remain in place. We could have built up a few TWatts of capacity by now with all the money wasted on tax credits. PV solar still has its uses, like powering instrumentation in remote locati ons, satellites, and small scale auxilliary stuff like pumps and fans in ot her systems.

Oooops ! Yes, you're right... 10 cents was what I meant to put down there ! I have heard of 5 cents per kW-Hour in eastern washington within the last 6 years or so which was evidently why Google and some others put server farms there.

Flooded Lead Acid batteries are still the battery of choice for off grid. It's done all the time and works well. Nicads were used and still some but not very much. The present battery to use for off grid is the flooded LA deep cycle like the Trojan L-16. 2V cells are good for large systems where they don't want to parallel lots of serised 6V strings. HUP batteries are one of the best (and most expensive) LA types that last a long time when properly charged.

boB

fuels, are all antiquated failures. The solar mirror farms that focus huge amounts of solar thermal to a concentrator boiler to power steam drive turbines which power electrical generators is a viable technology. This gets piped at HVDC onto the grid. The grid distributes the energy- no emissions of any kind and vast amounts of existing infrastructure remain in place. We could have built up a few TWatts of capacity by now with all the money wasted on tax credits.

satellites, and small scale auxilliary stuff like pumps and fans in other systems.

And, off grid homes.