Software for a beginner to design and learn about circuits with?

Hi,

I'm interested in learning about circuitry as a hobby and to eventually create a few small projects that I had in mind, such as guitar pedals and a few audio devices, but obviously I have to start small.

I'm somewhat competent with programming/mathematics, have some text books, and I do know a -little- analogue+digital circuit theory, but I've never had a real hands-on attempt by myself before so I'll be pretty much attacking this as though I know nothing.

Can anyone recommend some software (free or cheap) that would be good for a beginner to use to learn about circuit behaviour and design some circuits with? Are there programs out there that actually allow you to drop in popular microcontrollers and model their behaviour as well?

Thanks, Matt.

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LTSpice, from Linear Technology is nice, and free. It doesn't have a wide library of device models -- but it's free.

Modeling microprocessor behavior is more problematic. If you want a program that'll integrate the microprocessor into an analog circuit model so you can investigate the interaction of software with the circuit, you're out of luck. Such programs, if they exist at all, would cost in the high 10's of kilobucks, if not 100's of kilobucks. Some processor manufacturer's _do_ have simulations for their processors that are nice, but they won't interact with an external model.

--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Reply to
Tim Wescott

Hi Matt, there are tons of packages out there. One I remeber starting with was called Circuit Shop. Their page is

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. It's cheap, has a demo, and will definately keep you experimenting into the wee hours of the morning. There are full-feature packages too which will simulate all aspects of microcontrollers and tri-state electronics, but they are not cheap of course. One you might want to look into Proteus VSM from
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. Any major package has it's own discrete learning curve, I'd say it would be best to try out as many demos as you can then stick with the one you like the best (and never look back.) Switching between EE apps is very difficult.

p.s. nice choice of email client! :)

-M

Reply to
Mark Jones

Hey Tim. Check out the price list for Proteus VSM. It's not super cheap, but it's way under $10,000 especially if you're a student. Just today I simulated a PIC16F876 CCP1 in PWM mode --> 4th-order RC filter network --> buffered DC by an OP193 spice model... true mixed-mode simulation does exist! :)

-M

Reply to
Mark Jones

eventually

some

to

Someones gotta say it... :->

Forget simulation software. The best way to learn is to get yourself the following:

- A multimeter

- An oscilloscope

- A function generator

- A breadboard

- A bunch of components.

Then build stuff, you'll learn a lot more - really. You said it yourself, you don't have enough "hands-on" experience. Software ain't hands-on.

If you *really* want sofwtare, try something purpose designed here:

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I think I have seen them on ebay too.

Forget the "spice" type packages, they are not suitable for beginners. Regards Dave :)

Reply to
David L. Jones

I will recomend my SuperSpice

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as the GUI is very easy to use.

The demo version can actually allow quite large circuits to be built.

Of particlar relevence is that support for the demo is also free, by someone who also knows a fair bit about music based electonics, hint:

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If your into tubes, it comes with a full set, even includes humbucking pickup symbols
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Kevin Aylward snipped-for-privacy@anasoft.co.uk

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SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Reply to
Kevin Aylward

I am also a beginner and found CircuitMaker, it's student version is free and so far been working Ok with the experiments that I do, BTW I do them in the computer and then build them on the bread board and perform measurements.

Was wondering why no one recommended CircuitMaker?

Reply to
Jim Douglas

I would have agreed with this sentiment before I tried LTSpice. It is, in the parlance of our times, the shiznit.

LTSpice is certainly no substitute for actual bench work, especially for a novice, but it can really help you understand *why* something doesn't work the way you expect. It is one of the most valuable troubleshooting aids around.

-- jm

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Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam

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Reply to
John Miles

See my notes and links to some 60 ECAD programs at

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several of which include simulation facilities.

Terry Pinnell Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK

Reply to
Terry Pinnell

Well cool. I will have to take a look.

What I really want is something that'll interface a PIC or AVR simulator with a motion simulator like MatLab/Simulink -- but I understand that I'm being excessively greedy, and will have to wait a while.

--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Reply to
Tim Wescott

Patience! In the 5 hours since Matt's post, of the 8 replies so far:

2 recommended against using a simulation package at all 1 recommended LTSpice 1 recommended Proteus VSM, 1 software author recommended (surprise) his own package, and 2 (including me) recommended researching the many programs available.

You were the 8th, recommending CM. I'd echo that, as it's what I use myself (although I have CM 2000 Pro, with several thousand models built-in, not the free version).

I'd also reinforce the value of experimental breadboarding and the use of a 'scope - but nevertheless I sure wish I'd had a simulator when I started out in the hobby.

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Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK
Reply to
Terry Pinnell

EWB is crap and essentially useless. Its that sort of software that literally forced me to write my own as I wasn't about to pay several $1000 for PSpice.

I disagree completly. Of course I strongly agree that there is no substitute for hands on experience. I myself stated with electronic kits at the age of 11. The real world gets you a feel that is most certainly missing in simulation software. However...my opinion is that spice is still a wonderful complement for beginners. It allows essentially, 95% of the real world to be fully accounted for. There is so much you can effectively do in spice and not keep blowing up components. The proof of this is that in pro i.c design some can regularly ship 1st time product on first past, and these can be very large circuits. *Today*, one doesn't have to practise in the real world to learn how to do things in the real world, flight simulators are proof of this.

Most arguments on not using spice are from, the well I didn't start that way, so it aint goanna be useful. The world has moved on. One needs to change ones mind set. For me, it would have been great to have had spice all those years ago.

Kevin Aylward snipped-for-privacy@anasoft.co.uk

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SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Reply to
Kevin Aylward

Do a Google search on "Craig Anderton". Also "PAIA" and "Electronic Projects for Musicians".

He wrote a couple of books in the '80's presenting interesting music oriented electronics projects well within the grasp of a casual hobbiest. Probably a bit dated now, but I'll bet he's still up to something similar.

Screw software. Get your hands dirty.

Bob

Reply to
Bob Stephens

I agree 100% In particular, run away from the "we put in 10,000 features whether or not anyone needs them" sort of SPICE program. That would be like learning how to operate a nuclear reactor when what you really need is a flashlight battery. The time spent learning the clunky human interface that only a programmer who holds all lesser mortals in contempt could love is better spent learning circuits.

Also, there is a great book that you should get. It's called "The Art of Electronics" (often referred to as "AoE" here). See

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for details.

--
Guy Macon
Reply to
Guy Macon

Another vote for AoE here. If the OP only gets one book, that's the one.

On the SPICE issue, my preference is BeigeBag Spice. I've used it for years; have NOT sampled many of the others, though.

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Rich Webb   Norfolk, VA
Reply to
Rich Webb

That's about my opinion of EWB, as well.

Jon

Reply to
Jonathan Kirwan

text

but

good

yourself

beginners.

kits

certainly

95%

But that's the whole point. When you blow components up, when you wire something in backwards, when you read the colour code wrong and goof up a value, when you short something out, when you use your test instrument incorrectly, when you load down your circuit, when your opamp oscillates because the leads are too long, when your LED lights up, when your speaker buzzes, when your relay clicks, when your circuit doesn't work and you have to actually troubleshoot it - thats when you actually LEARN!

None of this happens in software, unless you know the traps and actually program them in! Catch 22?

Beginners need to play with hardware to start out with, not software. Simulators can come later when you are more advanced and want to play with the finer details.

I won't disagree that simulators are useful tools, they are great, and are very useful for intermeadiate to advanced people.

I for one use CircuitMaker 2000 and it's great.

product

The relevance to beginners?

in

You would trust your life to a pilot that has zero hours in the actual air? I wouldn't!

that

to

spice

I'm not arguing that simulators aren't useful, they are. I'm arguing that a beginner should not use them until they learn the REAL stuff first.

Regards Dave :)

Reply to
David L. Jones

is

I have not played with your software, but after looking at the screen shot here

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I've got to say that surely you must be kidding! You would recommend this to a "beginner"???

Look at all those buttons "Sc N I M Ot G Lg D FF P Tx Rr aa ss so PO DD R G N II ac itf tr fft ff", and what is all that spice stuff in the Model window? Geeze, my mind boggles just looking at it all, and I know what it's all about!

You seriously expect a "beginner" in electronics to digest all that and know how to use it effectively?, let alone effectively enough to actually learn useful practical things?

BTW, I'm not bagging your product, so please don't take this as an insult, I'm sure it's a fine simulator package. I'm just saying that I wouldn't recommend this to a "beginner" in a blind fit. No doubt though you'll go tell me to try it... so I'll pre-empt that (:-P) by saying the screen is way too "busy" and technical for a beginner.

A few people have bagged Electronics Workbench, but at least it is designed for the beginner types with it's virtual instruments, simple/drop interface, and hides the technical stuff like spice commands etc. At least it was like that when I played with the 16bit version.

Actually I like the look of the "Electronics tutorial" CDs that I posted a link to before. They seem to show photos of real components, how to indentify them, and then lets you simulate building basic blocks etc. Anyone actually tried it?

I don't think anyone has actually touch on one very important aspect of actually building stuff instead of using simulators. It's FUN! and actually holds your interest and makes you want to learn more. Simulators don't do that, at least for me and every other practical engineer I know.

Regards

Reply to
David L. Jones

Very true. Understanding comes through the fingers, not just from reading or software. Electronics will be a dead subject to you if you don't get stuff working. I have seen this - even in qualified electronics engineers. Some people wait until they know exactly what they are doing - but they never get started. The practice and concepts feed on each other.

Step one is go to an electronics shop or tech bookshop and look at the books, then *buy* some books you feel will get you started. I wouldn't rely only on internet information - get real books.

Even those "test bench in software" tools with a pretend oscilloscope, power supply, generator will waste your time.

For a start, you can get going with a multimeter, small power supply and breadboard. Go to Radio Shack etc and see what is available. The breadboard you want has a forest of holes 0.1 inch apart for you to poke in component leads. You can read your books, build, modify and learn. Make lights flash, speakers beep.

best wishes Roger

Reply to
Roger Lascelles

Until you play with it, making a judgment is a bit premature is it not?

Yep.

Most of then buttons you can ignore, however they have fly overs telling you what they do.

The buttons you do use are there becuse it makes the program very easy to use.

R - Runs the simulation AC - turns on/off an ac run TR - turns on/off a transient run

etc...

In what way could that be simpler?

You can ignore the model window. It simple shows what model is attached to the symbol when you click it. This is useful if you want to edit it.

Yep. He loads in the examples and presses the run button. Everything will be displayed automatically.

I would, because the writer of the software is an analogue designer with a general interest in passing on knowledge. I dont know of any other outfits that would guide biginers through aspects not actually directly related to the software itself, for free.

I disagree. You should have a look at say, visual spice.

SS is set up such that most of what you see can be ignored, however, if you need to see some finer details, you can. For example, the "N" button simply pops up the netlist. The "G" button pops up a graphic window. Graphic windows are opened and closed automatically depending on what data is available (AC TRAN Noise etc), however, on some rare occasions one might want to manually open a new one. For example, loading in existing simulation data set manually.

Of course there is a learning curve with any tool. The learning time for SS is way less than the real world.

Virtual instruments are a bad idea. For example, in EWB you have to keep breaking and moving wires all the time to look at different voltages and currents. This is truly a nightmare. In SS you simply move test point (or click on wires/pins) and the waveforms will change immediately.

Oscilloscopes are way more complicated to use than a simple virtual graphic display.

SS hides all the spice technicalities in the GUI. You must be using LTSpice:-)

Kevin Aylward snipped-for-privacy@anasoft.co.uk

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SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Reply to
Kevin Aylward

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