Self Powered Indicator (end of the story ...)

Mar 12, 2014 100 Replies

Hi all !



For those who are interrested on the topic here after i made this (mainly o n John Larkin and Jim Thompson ideas)



I will evaluate this ... what do you think, please be gentle don't shout.



Version 4 SHEET 1 1356 932 WIRE -304 -288 -512 -288 WIRE -64 -288 -224 -288 WIRE 368 -288 -64 -288 WIRE 656 -288 368 -288 WIRE 1024 -288 656 -288 WIRE -64 -240 -64 -288 WIRE 1024 -240 1024 -288 WIRE 368 -224 368 -288 WIRE 656 -224 656 -288 WIRE 1024 -96 1024 -160 WIRE 1024 -96 544 -96 WIRE 1200 -96 1024 -96 WIRE -64 -64 -64 -160 WIRE 80 -64 80 -160 WIRE 80 -64 -64 -64 WIRE 544 -48 544 -96 WIRE 80 -32 80 -64 WIRE 272 16 272 -160 WIRE 272 16 144 16 WIRE 368 16 368 -144 WIRE 368 16 272 16 WIRE 368 160 368 16 WIRE 368 160 272 160 WIRE 544 160 544 32 WIRE 576 160 544 160 WIRE 720 160 640 160 WIRE 864 160 784 160 WIRE 976 160 928 160 WIRE -512 176 -512 -288 WIRE 272 192 272 160 WIRE 368 208 368 160 WIRE 80 240 80 64 WIRE 208 240 80 240 WIRE 976 240 976 160 WIRE 976 240 784 240 WIRE 752 304 752 288 WIRE 784 304 784 240 WIRE 784 304 752 304 WIRE 272 336 272 288 WIRE 368 336 368 288 WIRE 368 336 272 336 WIRE 784 352 784 304 WIRE 272 400 272 336 WIRE 880 400 848 400 WIRE 880 512 880 400 WIRE 464 560 432 560 WIRE 560 560 528 560 WIRE 784 560 784 448 WIRE 816 560 784 560 WIRE 368 656 368 336 WIRE 432 656 432 560 WIRE 432 656 368 656 WIRE 448 656 432 656 WIRE 560 656 560 560 WIRE 560 656 528 656 WIRE 640 656 560 656 WIRE 784 656 784 560 WIRE 784 656 640 656 WIRE -64 672 -64 -64 WIRE 1024 688 1024 -96 WIRE 640 720 640 656 WIRE 640 720 608 720 WIRE 368 752 368 656 WIRE 848 784 848 752 WIRE 880 784 880 608 WIRE 880 784 848 784 WIRE -512 880 -512 256 WIRE -64 880 -64 736 WIRE -64 880 -512 880 WIRE 368 880 368 832 WIRE 368 880 -64 880 WIRE 880 880 880 784 WIRE 880 880 368 880 WIRE 1024 880 1024 752 WIRE 1024 880 880 880 WIRE 368 912 368 880 FLAG 80 -160 G FLAG 272 -160 B1 FLAG 272 400 B2 FLAG 368 912 0 FLAG 656 -160 0 FLAG 608 720 G2 FLAG 848 752 K2 FLAG 752 288 A2 SYMBOL npn 208 192 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q1 SYMATTR Value 2N2222 SYMBOL pnp 144 64 R180 SYMATTR InstName Q2 SYMATTR Value 2N2907 SYMBOL res 352 -240 R0 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 10k SYMBOL res 352 736 R0 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 33 SYMBOL res -80 -256 R0 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 1meg SYMBOL cap -80 672 R0 SYMATTR InstName C1



SYMBOL voltage -512 160 R0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 3000 0 100m 100m 15) SYMBOL res 352 192 R0 SYMATTR InstName R4 SYMATTR Value 10k SYMBOL res -208 -304 R90 WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R6 SYMATTR Value 3meg SYMBOL polcap 1008 688 R0 WINDOW 3 24 56 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C2



SYMATTR Description Capacitor SYMATTR Type cap SYMATTR SpiceLine V=25 Irms=1.01 Rser=0.065 Lser=0 mfg="Panasonic " pn="ECA1EFQ471" type="Al electrolytic" SYMBOL res 1008 -256 R0 SYMATTR InstName R7 SYMATTR Value 5k SYMBOL LED 864 176 R270 WINDOW 0 72 32 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName D2 SYMATTR Value NSCW100 SYMATTR Description Diode SYMATTR Type diode SYMBOL LED 576 176 R270 WINDOW 0 72 32 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName D3 SYMATTR Value NSCW100 SYMATTR Description Diode SYMATTR Type diode SYMBOL res 528 -64 R0 SYMATTR InstName R8 SYMATTR Value 500 SYMBOL pnp 848 448 R180 SYMATTR InstName Q3 SYMATTR Value 2N2907 SYMBOL npn 816 512 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q4 SYMATTR Value 2N2222 SYMBOL res 544 640 R90 WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R9 SYMATTR Value 470 SYMBOL cap 528 544 R90 WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C4 SYMATTR Value 10n SYMBOL cap 640 -224 R0 SYMATTR InstName C3



SYMATTR SpiceLine V=25 Irms=0 Rser=0.001 Lser=0 mfg="TDK" pn="C



575OX7RIE106M" type="X7R" SYMBOL LED 720 176 R270 WINDOW 0 72 32 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName D1 SYMATTR Value NSCW100 SYMATTR Description Diode SYMATTR Type diode TEXT -546 856 Left 2 !.tran 0 15 0 0.1m startup TEXT 152 -88 Left 2 ;UJT ... TEXT 1064 -72 Left 2 ;To Low Power Opamp TEXT 824 344 Left 2 ;Thyristor ... RECTANGLE Normal 960 688 672 320 2 RECTANGLE Normal 448 352 -32 -128 2

I have not checked at high voltage but ir will certainly not work at your lower limit of 50Volt.

R1,R4 and R2 total 20.033kohm and with 3Meg R6 will stop the voltage across C3 ever reaching 0.35Volt.

What kind of supply voltage is your op-amp load expecting and how many micro/milli-amps will it be consuming? Can it tolerate a supply with ripple, if so how much?

t.

Ahhh yes !!! Apologies it does not work :-(

Best regards,

See...

Message-ID:

for Habib's LTspice .asc file.

R1 should be across the B-E of Q2.

Both R1 & R4 are to small, if the UJT fires at all it will be fire once as power is applied, then never again. (Read up on UJT's and holding current).

I haven't mused yet this morning about an auxiliary supply... just woke up and poured my first coffee, but there certainly might be a way, just add a diode appropriately.

I'll try to avoid "math and simulation (since they) are both crutches"

...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

The math is simple: Jim's idea of putting megohms in series with the HV supply is unworkable.

Incidentally, how much aux supply current do you need? Is 10 volts about right?

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation

Right. Try thinking first.

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation

10V is about the right answer >:-} ...Jim Thompson
| James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Why don't you start working on something that's got a chance of being right?

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation

I need some 0.5mA or so under 5V ; a low Iq LDO would do the the job.

Habib.

The brightest LED that I have is a Cree T1-3/4 white. At 2 mA, 3 ms, 1 Hz, reasonably diffused, it isn't bad in lowish office lighting. It could stand more drive, maybe 3x or 5x the pulse width or current, to be more visible in other environments. So some pulsed thing should be better than CW. The Cree is extraordinary; more usual LEDs wouldn't work. Since lots of voltage is available, more LED junctions in series, or some inductive thing, would be a big advantage.

So, Jim's resistive thing could work if it is close to 100% efficient into a really good LED and can also supply the aux DC that you need, and if you don't mind roughly 10 watts of power dissipation at 3KV.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

OK, that kills the resistor-limited design. Back to a mosfet stack.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Yep. Let's see your LTspice file. ...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

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| 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

How about an inverse Marx generator? Charge up a stack of caps via series-connected avalanche transistors, and discharge them through resistors.

It'd be more fun, anyway. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net

My design meets the 2mA/3ms pulsed-driven LED, max draw from 3KV is ~2mA (6W, Habib's limit), but, obviously, cannot supply any auxiliary current.

How expensive are those HV PowerMOS devices? ...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

I pondered that, since capacitor-type bucks are making the rounds, but how do you do the controls at these voltages cheaply and at the low power budget? ...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On a sunny day (Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:28:14 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson wrote in :

IS THERE ANY CURRENT IN THE HV? IF SO PUT A LED IN SERIES WITH IT!!!!!

Den onsdag den 12. marts 2014 20.35.47 UTC+1 skrev Jim Thompson:

digikey list a number 1KV devices for ~$1

of go crazy and use this ~$15 4.5KV part

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-Lasse

Fun, but needs HV switches.

An inverse Marx would series the caps, in parallel with a resistor string, and parallel them briefly now and then. Maybe use SSRs and only use the low half or such of the stack? That devolves to a resistive divider driving the Marx stack. 400 volt SSRs maybe?

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Spice? Something this simple? I'd as soon Spice a battery and a light bulb.

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This is pushing the fets thermally, so if there's not good air flow, reduce the zener voltages to 200 maybe and use more stages.

The 5KV surge dumps about 200 mA into the zeners, so they have to be able to stand that.

It's just about to start dimming at 50 volts.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com

What the world needs is that voltage capability, but enhancement mode... 5V from 3kV, trivial ;-) ...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

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