ROHS Question

Lead(II)-acetate has been used as a sweetener until into the 19th century. It is supposed that the addition of lead(II)-acetate to wine caused Beethoven's death. (It's known that he died of lead-poisoning since he himself had ordered an autopsy to be performed on him).

Philipp

Did you not feel like repainting your house in the last 40 years?

Then you will be quite able to point us at the information which led you to this belief.

I second that. Considering that car batteries are easy to recycle and are actually of some value - lead is a rather expensive metal. Hence, it's not very likely for them to end, where they shouldn't end..

I think you have a point here. I'm personally speculating as to which extent a changed attitude towards electronics products has made RoHS possibel. I believe that people are really tired of all the cheapish, plastics electronics garbage, formally known as consumer electronics, which don't last very long, cannot be repaired (service, spare parts are non existent), and have to be replaced anyway a couple of years after purchase, because our industry says, there is something newer and better, which of course isn't compatible. In short, most people nowadays probably have a love/hate relationship to their electronics products. We have to have a PC, cell phone, TV set and so on, but that is more a necessaty than anything you really like to have. Hence, people and their politicians have a rather negative attitude towards electronics, so it's easy to make an RoHS directive. Compare it to cars, people are much happier for the cars than for their PC - just a coincidence, that automotive electronics is exempt from RoHS???

Still I challenge the non availability of parts due to RoHS as urban legend. So far I haven't found anything which you can't get any longer because RoHS has made it impossible. If at all, then I believe that vendors have used RoHS as a good excuse to cease production of non profitable components, whithout risking a bad reputation. (Possibly the case with Philips' HV diodes). But everything which is profitable is also available as RoHS compliant component. I can't see the difference to the obsolecence problem in general.

Known problems? What are you referring to? I don't know of any part problems. Tin whiskers? Well this is a production problem and sorry, I can't see the difference - Production problems are widely accepted, if one can earn money, by moving production to China and using crappy South/East Asian parts (caps etc.). The end user doesn't care whether his product fails, due to tin whiskers or profit-optimizing production methods.

Cheers, Klaus

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:22:22 GMT, "ian field" Gave us:

You have four days.

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:27:11 -0700, Jim Thompson Gave us:

Do you feel as though you have been euronated on as a result of RoHS?

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:35:39 -0400, Chuck Harris Gave us:

The dirt and hands thing happens dozens of times in a child's life... The lead from dirt thing is a VERY rare event indeed.

So, NO, it does not, nor has NOT EVER become a problem.

I built my house, so I know exactly what it was painted with, by whom, and when. Since I have been living in houses for the last 50 years, I would suspect that some of the earlier houses and apartments were painted with lead paint. My family was always fastidious enough to require the stripping and repainting of walls and trim that were chipped and peeling. This isn't always the case among the poorer inner city folks, though why I cannot say.

My high school chemistry teacher Mr. Samuel Perlmutter. He spent 20-30 years working as a research chemist for the US Food and Drug Administration, before spending much of the rest of his life teaching honors chemistry to us brats. He spent quite a bit of time teaching us about the toxic risks of mercury, lead, cadmium, and other heavy metals. This was in the early 1970's. He won a number of prestigious national awards for his teaching. If you google, ["Samuel Perlmutter" award] you can find a shamefully tiny bit of information about him. Not much considering the tremendous boost he gave his many students.

What proof do you have that runs against hundreds of years of common knowledge, beginning with the downfall of the Roman Empire?

-Chuck

You, would have been safer if you left the siding alone. By removing it, you released a fair amount of asbestos dust that may (though probably won't) be harmful to your life in 30 years.

The lead was only a very small percentage of the material in the paint. I would doubt that it would contribute noticeably to the weight.

...

Drop one, and you will notice that the lead isn't contained much at all. Leave one out in the sun for a few years, and the plastic case will crumble into nothingness. I have several on my farm that were just left by earlier occupants, and they have most certainly released all of their acid, and as much of their lead as they could to the elements. I would estimate that each battery had between 25 and 40 pounds of lead in the form of lead sulfide, and lead oxide in it. The lead is in a very porous form, so it has lots of surface area exposed. This extreme surface area provides a greater amount of incidental dissolution in water than a shiny lead surface would have.

It is true that there is a pretty good recycling system available for car batteries, but given that many wholesalers, like Costco, charge you extra when you leave a battery for recycling, literally tons of car batteries bypass the recycling system and head straight into the environment.

One car battery improperly disposed of, equals, I would guess, several metric tons of PC's improperly disposed of.

...

I too am interested in the environment. I have to live here too! But legislation like RoHS isn't about saving the environment, it is about political power. RoHS is the natural result of a flawed philosophy, whose major canon is: it is always a good thing when you eliminate something bad. Unintended consequences aren't given any real weight in the legislative process.

-Chuck

Richard Crowley wrote: One has only to look at the quantity of lead in a

Of course not! Batteries are expressly excluded from RoHS.

-Chuck

Lack of any actual reference to ingestion-caused poisioning noted.

Surely you don't think THAT argument holds any water? There is absolutely no indication that we have learned ANYTHING. We are headed in exactly the same direction and exceeding the historical speed limit, at that.

A stuck system ? As youth I spent a fair number of afternoons to grab old car batteries from the junkyard and wheeled them on the bicycle to the car battery maker which would give me 5 bucks for each. Mom just wondered why the t-shirts become porous rather quickly.

Rene

The Romans used a lead compound to sweeten their wine. Lead water supply pipes have a layer of calcium that keeps the water away from the lead. On the other hand, you wouldn't want to use lead to distribute soft or distilled water.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I\'ve got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

legislation

RoHS

Of course not, that would require legislators to _think_ instead of just reacting to the threat-of-the-moment. My favorite unintended consequence story is what happened when car manufacturers improved vehicle antitheft systems. Back when you could just pull the lock out of the steering column with a slide hammer, car theft was a form of sneak-thievery. Now, it's more effective to stick a pistol in the driver's face at a stoplight. This is compounded by mandatory-sentencing laws in some states that put armed robbery in the same class as murder. All _that_ does is give a robber a powerful incentive to kill his victim, eliminating the principal witness.

A good law needs to be written like a good program, covering all cases. Maybe all members of Congress and state legislatures should be required to learn to program, on a system that has STDERR routed through a step-up transformer to a pair of electrodes in the seat of the user's chair.

family

So the children of poorer inner city folks are likely to contain more lead. If the IQ of the children of poor inner city folks turns out to be a bit below average would you attribute that to them being the children of poorer inner city folks or to the lead they contain?

And I am quite certain that ingesting enough lead will damage all your capacities, ingesting enough lead will damage the suspension of the hearse they cart your body away it - but that's not the point is it.

The only claimed adverse effect of very low level lead exposure is a reduction in children's IQ. When I looked I could find no evidence to support this claim.

working as

other

national

find

tremendous

When you have finished name dropping perhaps you will tell us what this name told you about low level lead exposure and children's IQ or point to some other evidence to support what you appear to be "quite certain" about.

I'm a 'merican, you're a-peein'...

Are you familiar with primary and secondary sources? Perlmutter was both. He worked for a lab that did research on the physiological effects of foods and food additives, and he was familiar with the research that was done.

Here are some other primary sources:

Bleecker ML, et al. Differential effects of lead exposure on components of verbal memory. Occup Environ Med. 2005 Mar;62(3):181-7.

Chen A, Dietrick, KN, Ware, JH, et al. IQ and Blood Lead from 2 to 7 Years of Age: Are the Effects in Older Children the Residual of High Blood Lead Concentrations in 2-Year-Olds? Environ Health Perspect. 2005 May;113(5):597-601.

Tong S, et al. Environmental Lead Exposure: A Public Health Problem of Global Dimensions. Bull World Health Organ. 2000;

78(9): 1068-77.

Wright RO, et al. Association between iron deficiency and blood lead level in a longitudinal analysis of children followed in an urban primary care clinic. J Pediatr. 2003;142: 9?14.

1. Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program. Cenus/surveillance data. Los Angeles, CA: Los Angeles Department of Health Services; Maternal, Child & Adolescent Health, Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program; 2006. Available at
   formatting link
   2. CDC. Preventing lead poisoning in young children. Atlanta, GA: US Department of Health and Human Services, CDC;

2005. Available at 3. CDC. Lead poisoning from ingestion of a toy necklace---Oregon, 2003. MMWR 2004;53:509--11. 4. International Programme on Chemical Safety. Environmental health criteria 165: inorganic lead. Geneva, Switzerland: United Nations Environment Programme, International Labour Organisation, World Health Organization; 1995. Available at 5. CDC. Blood lead levels, United States, 1999--2002. MMWR 2005;54:513--6. 6. Maas RP, Patch SC, Pandolfo TJ, Druhan JL, Gandy NF. Lead content and exposure from children's and adult's jewelry products. Bull Environ Contam Toxicol 2005;74:437--44.

Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. (1988). The nature and extent of lead poisoning in children in the United States: a report to Congress. Atlanta: USDHHS.

Centers for Disease Control. (1991). Preventing lead poisoning in young children. Atlanta: USDHHS, PHS.

Centers for Disease Control. (Undated flier). Important facts about childhood lead poisoning prevention. Atlanta: USDHHS, PHS.

1. Childhood Lead Poisoning Facts-2002, Michigan Department of Community Health (MDCH), 2003. [Data adapted]
2. Blood Lead Testing in Michigan. 1994-2002 [Graph], MDCH, 2003
3. Unpublished 2002 Datafile, Kent County Health Department
4. Scott R, MDCH, Lansing Michigan, E-mail, May 30, 2003.
5. ?Cognitive Impairment in Children with Blood Lead Concentrations below 10 ug per Deciliter.? Canfield RL et al. New England Journal of Medicine. April, 2003: 348, 1517-26
6. Press Release, Pediatric Academic Societies. April 2001
7. A Strange Ignorance. Mike Martin. Arizona School Boards Association. Phoenix, AZ 2002.
8. ?Cognitive Deficits Associated with Blood Lead Concentrations > What proof do you have that runs against hundreds of years of common

Yes, I do. It is well known that the Romans used lead as a medicine, as an additive to foods and drinks. In addition, they used lead as a writing implement, for jewelry, for eating and cooking utensils, for decorations, for plumbing, and numerous other purposes. They were well steeped in both lead, and madness... but inspite of that the Romans did not make the connection. Later generations did.

Huh?

-Chuck

Of the few you gave which I could look at the one with this extract will do a) The most substantial evidence from cross-sectional and prospective studies of populations with PbB levels generally below 1.2 µmol/litre (25 µg/dl) relates to decrements in intelligence quotient (IQ). It is important to note that such observational studies cannot provide definitive evidence of a causal relationship with lead exposure. However .... blah blah

and what a rant the last linked reference you gave is.

It could be due to many factors. I am well aware that correlation does not equal causation. As are the researchers that have written a myriad of papers on the subject. As with all human research, it is difficult to prove causation... Something about the moral issues of doing a double blind test by feeding one twin lead, and raising both in the same environment just to see what happens.

Where did you look? and more importantly, *why* did you look?

Dropping Mr. Perlmutter's name isn't likely to buy anyone great prestige, or win an argument. I used his name because I remembered it fondly, and you asked for my source. He was a very smart, and decent man that chose to work in education, rather than remain a cog in the wheels of the government bureaucracy. As a result, he is a largely unsung hero, championed only by his former friends, family and students.

He mentioned a link between blood lead level, and cognitive development. I am certain he did not say anything about IQ, but the inference could be easily made. He knew that a bunch of us were radio nuts, and handled solder, so we were told about the usual ways lead gets into the body, and warned to always wash our hands. Probably good advice in any event.

-Chuck

I looked at everything I could find on the internet and I looked a few years ago at the time leaded petrol was prohibited in the UK. I looked to find out for myself what if any justification there was rather than just blindly accepting glib statements like

"Nevertheless some infants and children may still be at risk. Studies have shown that lead can have a small effect on the mental development of children. It may also be a factor in behavioural problems."

with which the internet is littered.