Shall I quote to you once again the post that started this thread where you computed the power gain of a latching relay using joules in (joules are a unit of energy, not power) and watts/joules per second out (watts/joules per second is a unit of power) -- and got the wrong answer for power gain?
You *could* simply be a man and admit that you made an error. It isn't as if the rest of us here are perfect and have never made any errors.
Then again, the rest of us here aren't in the habit of telling someone who makes a trivial error that he isn't qualified to do any sort of engineering work, so I suspect that the following observation applies in your case: "The most hostile group was the one with high but unstable self esteem. These people think well of themselves in general, but their self-esteem fluctuates. They are especially prone to react defensively to ego threats, and they are also more prone to hostility, anger and aggression than other people. "These findings shed considerable light on the psychology of the bully. Hostile people do not have low self esteem; on the contrary, they think highly of themselves, But their favorable view of themselves is not held with total conviction, and it goes up and down in response to daily events. The bully has a chip on his shoulder because he thinks you might want to deflate his favorable self image." -Roy F. Baumeister, _Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty_ p 149
Guy Macon
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J
John Larkin
You could have checked the numbers for yourself in a tiny fraction of the time it took you to post hundreds of lines of blather.
Unless, of course, you couldn't. At any rate, you didn't.
I think it does.
It is precisely equal if both are measured over the same time interval. Just divide the numerator and the denominator by T.
Of course I can, and it will be right. My paragraph above may hint at a method.
Sure I can. Post an example problem, one that of course *you* can't solve, and I will. I will need a specified measurement interval.
Some are, as Speff pointed out. If not, I suppose I could reveal the equation to do the conversion.
"Never" is a dangerous word. I have seen contactors rated in terms of load VA.
Cite?
Too many times. Pick a latching relay data sheet and compute the power gain for us.
John
J
John Larkin
*energy*".
you
you
never
have
you
Guy Macon? Or JF. The styles are similar.
Pitiful, having to pretend to be other people to find allies.
John
G
Guy Macon
Ah. More insults. As usual, i will take that as an admission that you know that you are wrong.
What part of "I consider your switching the conversation from your obvious errors concerning latching electromechanical relays to a discussion of non-latching solid-state relays to be a red herring. I refuse to play that game" are you having trouble understanding?
Alas, the laws of physics don't really care what you think, Power is not energy. Energy is not power.
As has been explained to you several times before, a mile is not a mile per hour, and inventing a new unit that you call "a mile, measured over the course of an hour, thus making a mile precisely equal to a mile per hour" does not change the basic fact that a mile is not a mile per hour.
To bad that your new "measured over a period of time" unit is something you invented later. In your original posts you just said joules in and joules per second out.
That's your basic logical fallacy. Just as the mile has no specified measurement interval (and thus a mile is not a mile per hour), a joule is not a joule per second / watt). There is a basic difference between measuring distance and measuring speed. There is a basic difference between measuring power and measuring energy.
But *you* said that they are *usually* rated in VA, and you even specified steady-state!
Every time you say that, it just drives home the fact that you are a master of arithmetic with very little knowledge of mathematics.
He who only understands arithmetic will happily divide miles by miles per hour and call the result velocity gain (acceleration). He who understands math will see the basic error and insist on miles on both sides of the equation when calculating distance gained and miles per hour on both sides of the equation when calculating velocity gain -- and he will call the result velocity gain or acceleration, not distance gained or even distance gain "measured over a specified time period that just happens to equal the velocity gain."
He who only understands arithmetic will happily divide joules by joules per second (watts) and call the result power gain. He who understands math will see the basic error and insist on joules per second (watts) on both sides of the equation when calculating power gain and joules on both sides of the equation when calculating energy gain -- and he will call the result energy gain, not power gain or even power gain "measured over a specified time period that just happens to equal the energy gain."
I specified that I was talking about contact ratings and not the load in my very first comment on VA.
I already cited a basic mathematics textbook. If you wish to claim that engineers are taught some other kind of math, the burden of proof is on you.
Spoken like a true arithmetic expert. The *math* is watts out divided by watts in. That's the definition of power gain. Not watts out divided by joules in, as you stated. And the answer is not infinity unless watts out is infinity or watts in is zero, neither of which is true even if one only understands arithmetic.
G
Guy Macon
Accusations without evidence in another transparent attempt to distract the reader from your errors. I am not "Dr. Polemic" and have no need to create sock puppets; questions of science are resolved by actual evidence, not by having many allies.
Guy Macon
J
John Larkin
Are you saying that, given a relay datasheet, you can't figure out the VA rating of the contacts?
Oh, stop this fatheaded pseudo-Biblical "he who" crap. The very first engineering course I ever took, taught by the Dean of Engineering no less, was Engineering Design Analysis, which emphasized dimensional analysis.
If a device uses 3.6 kilojoules in an hour, what's its average power consumption? That little problem *does* involve dividing things that have different units. Do you refuse to do such calculations?
Average watts in does indeed trend to zero as T increases.
Good grief, you are completely innumerate! Nothing but thousands of words to justify refusing to do simple math.
John
J
John Larkin
This from a guy who refuses to do simple math, but prefered JFs answers (which were wildly wrong) to mine (comfortably in the ballpark), based on some sort of personality issues.
Did I mention "pitiful"?
John
J
John Fields
Of all the errors which were committed here I consider the three most
grievous to be your claims that latching relay contacts can have
infinite power gain, that relay contacts are rated in Volt-Amperes on
data sheets, and that NEC\'s data sheet doesn\'t contain an error.
JF
J
John Larkin
I plead innocent to all charges.
John
G
Guy Macon
Those were certainly howlers, but I consider his fundamental confusion between energy and power to be worse. Then again, the error about latching relay power gain is an expression of his power/energy error; a latching relay does have an energy gain that increases without bound as you wait longer and longer, which he confused with the (fixed) power gain, so maybe we are saying the same thing.
Clearly he is ineducable due to excess pride. The careful explanation of why joules per second (power) are not joules (energy) using as an analogy the fact that miles per hour (speed) are not miles (distance)
-- and that inventing a new unit called "miles" that is defined as "miles travelled over a specified period of time" still does not make it so that miles are the same as miles per hour -- would have convinced a new technician right out of DeVry. I read sci.electronics.design to improve myself, and it is becoming pretty clear that there is nothing to learn from him; he might post something that I didn't know but I could never trust the information. For that reason I am now killfiling him, and letting him have the last word (which I will not see).
Hey! That one bounced! Must have been *really* ripe...
You might enjoy this description from the F****it FAQ at [
formatting link
]:
| | Regardless of its origins, the term 'f****it' has now become a | newsgroup term for someone who repeatedly and consistently proves | themselves totally impervious to clue, 'clue' being defined as | knowledge, enlightenment, advice. | | The F****it website (now defunct, unfortunately) described them | as "those sad, strange or egocentric people; who after having | had some education on technical, custom or procedural points | simply fail to absorb the advice. They fail to understand or | accept the clues offered." | | Isn't 'f****it' just a ruder way of calling someone stupid? | | Not necessarily. While stupidity is certainly a component of | fuckwittery, someone can be stupid but still accept clue when | it is offered. | | Here's an example of the sort of behaviour which will qualify | the perpetrator for the title of f****it. | | [example from uk.music.folk snipped; the current thread is a | perfect example already...] | | They respond by flaming ... they may make these responses with | what they imagine to be witty put-downs of the complainants. | The alarm bells should ring at this point. To quote from the | original F****it FAQ, "Because of this inability to receive | clue, most f*****ts actually believe that they are being stylish | and amusing when they aren't. Which is one of the major factors | that predisposes a person to fuckwittedness." | | Anyway, you now know that what you are dealing with is no | longer mere stupidity but is either a deliberate troll or | a full-blown f****it. | | What is the correct method of dealing with a proven f****it? | | Once it has become clear that this is someone utterly impervious | to clue, they should be ignored from then on. If necessary, put | them in a killfile. But arguing with them will be completely | pointless. There is an old saying -- "Never try to teach a pig | to sing, it just wastes your time and annoys the pig" and another | -- "If you wrestle with a pig in mud you both get | dirty - and the pig likes it." |
"Usenet should require licenses; licenses that can be revoked."
-Abigail
J
John Fields
"Innocent" isn\'t a plea, it\'s an admission of naivete.
Your plea should have been "not guilty", but it\'s too late...
The jury has already found you guilty and you may now additionally, have
to answer to charges of perjury.
JF
J
JosephKK
How tiresome. You failed to correct yourself.
J
John Larkin
Oh don't be silly. Neither you, nor GM, nor your sock puppet, can do the math. Lots and lots of words.
How about this?
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16 channels, polyphase, true RMS volts/amps, true power, PF, frequency, integrated energy, KWH pulses out. It's really just some mux's, a couple of ADCs, and a heap of software. This must be about the 10th power/energy metering gadget I've designed, plus a few cogen controllers. I probably won't do any more, because nobody in the energy biz likes to spend money.
John
J
JosephKK
No less than three others have, why bother, a fourth time will not convince you. Joules are not watts. Though it is clear by now none should have bothered to mention this.
J
John Fields
Nobody likes to spend money unwisely, and since you\'ve already stated on
more than one occasion that your stuff is grossly overpriced, maybe the
market is starting to agree with you.
JF
J
John Larkin
This is one of our least expensive VME modules, $2500 or some such. It never was a big seller; lesson learned. We can't afford market research; all we can do is design and build stuff and see if anybody wants it.
As I said, people in the energy business don't like to spend money. Ditto security, building automation, and process control. We just got an order from an aerospace company for four new VME arbs at almost $12K each. I love aerospace companies; they want good stuff and are willing to pay for it.
Something is only grossly overpriced if people won't buy it. The classic inverted parabola profit-versus-price curve is great in theory, but small companies seldom know where they actually are on the curve. I think some studies have suggested that most people price their stuff too low, for irrational reasons.
John
J
John Larkin
Even for the simple relay case, both you and GM refused to do simple arithmetic. JF gave it a shot, or several shots, and got it right on his third try.
All blather. All hat and no horse.
John
G
Guy Macon
Business is booming for those who can create a microcontroller-based product with the electronics cosing less than ten cents including all support components.
J
John Fields
And, no doubt, the mistake level in the newspaper articles and such, as
well.
JF
J
John Fields
--- Indeed, and even though you pretend to be someone who makes no errors, your facade is easily breached by those who do, leaving you with allies who are also liars.
JF
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