PV solar design example

Jun 04, 2008 116 Replies

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In the UK my parents were early adopters of night time electric storage heaters during the "white heat of technology" with electricity "too cheap to meter". The night off peak tariff still remains although it is nowhere near as competitive as it was in those early days. The storage heaters, big ugly things full of firebricks were junked a long time ago.

Although an electric water immersion heater is useful as a standby in case the main boiler locks out.

Depends whether or not they use a heat pump for the space heating and cooling. It might not be all that bad as you note below.

A lot more expensive I will give you that. But gas isn't available everywhere and LPG rigs together with servicing and all ancillary costs eat into some of the savings. Kerosene fuel oil is currently £1.70 /therm in the UK (all time high) and LGP around 60p so it would be almost 1/3 the fuel price. The new generation of condesning boilers have much better thermodynamic efficiency too (and corrosion problems are now resolved).

Where can I buy one of your "ideal" heat pumps. Admittedly practical implementations are pretty good but you do need a big area heat exchanger or your efficiency quickly takes a hit if you try to pump more heat than the air or ground can supply.

There are also fuel cell assemblies that generate electricity and dump their waste heat to the hot water system. The Japanese prime minister notably has one of these (I believe of US manufacture). Silent with no moving parts and excellent thermodynamic outcome.

More than tripled if the electricity is mostly oil generated.

Regards, Martin Brown

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I don't know about that. Transmission companies have such a strong natural monopoly that they have to be regulated in the public interest. Rent-seeking isn't what's usually considered 'free'.

Those would be antique horse-drawn wooden Cummins diesels?

Something along the lines of a small diesel truck engine is all that's required for most houses. It's the expense, maintenance, and (especially) noise that's the problem for most of us, I think.

No. Hydro is cheap, cheap, cheap, and pumped storage efficiencies are quite reasonable. With pumped storage, you can use bigger turbines on a given dam, because you don't have to match it with the available flow, or worry as much about depleting the reservoir in the dry season. So the incremental cost of pumped storage can be far less than the generation cost.

Sooooo?

I don't know about that either. Making an array that can steer 120 degrees in elevation doesn't need to be much much more expensive than one that steers 40 degrees. Given that you can get ~ 1 kW peak out of a square inch or so of silicon using concentrators, then assuming a average/peak ratio of 1/6 and $0.16/kWH electricity, you'd be getting about $230 per year worth of electricity out of that square inch of silicon. The cost for the concentrator is a bit harder to figure, but assuming it could stow itself to prevent damage, it wouldn't need to be that heavy-duty.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs

1) Strong "natural" monopoly + regulation =/= "free market", necessary or not. 2) forcing the "grid" to buy electricity back at their retail price is hardly "free market" 3) Doing *anything* that makes no economic sense, makes no sense.

;-) Others have made similar comments. I don't see the diesels as being contrary to their lifestyle. I do find the fact that they believe diesels aren't and being grid attached is. They don't eschew technology at all, rather luxuries. OTOH, I really don't much care. They make quite beautiful furniture at a "reasonable" price (just spent $14K on two rooms). ;-)

I don't really want the waste heat during the summer either.

Like rivers, there are only so many places to reasonably put such storage facilities. Those places tend to be liked more by the g/weenies for spotted dick habitat.

If it doesn't pay, it's rather silly to do it.

[Insert existence theorem here]
Keith

the

Power density problems with HTSCs, I think.

Keith

If any of them have taken on an environmentalist bent, someone should point out to them that they're creating a lot more pollution, fouling up their God-given planet, than if they connected to the grid.

Assuming that the cooling is accounted for, would there be any advantages to superconducting motors besides the shift from 90-95% to 100%? I'm thinking maybe stronger magnets could make for a smaller package, but would it save much energy?

Thanks, Rich

Aw, c'mon. You're not sorry, you're lovin' it! ;-)

Cheers! Rich

Nah- you've got it all wrong - when you want heat, so you freeze the water? Just plug in an electric heater - it'd be cheaper! ;-)

The way to do it is take a swimming-pool-sized cistern, and use it for the radiator part of a heat pump. In the winter, you freeze the water, and in the summer, you air-cool with the ice, melting and warming the water, for next year's cycle.

Have Fun! Rich

Howcome your coffee gets cold, but your beer gets warm? ;-)

Cheers! Rich

I doubt they've bought into AGW, either.

Keith

There are design issues. The ice will form on the heat exchanger, not elsewhere. This inhibits convective flows. The thermal conductivity of ice is far less than water with convection or pumping. What design solutions can you come up with to reduce these issues?

A solar pool heater around here is leaving the cover off during the day. I don't recall seeing any pool with a heater.

There is a place that sells solar electric and heaters near Gainesville. I pass it every time I have to go to the VA hospital. (Twice, in the last couple weeks for my right eye. I can't open it, and they don't know what is wrong.) I have passed it for over four years, and don't recall ever seeing anyone in their parking lot. I have considered building a solar heater for the house, but the increase in property taxes would wipe out all the savings, and then some. Any repair, remodeling or new construction over $90 requires a building permit, approved plans, and days of waiting in lines at various county offices.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth\'s aluminum foil beanie for the \'global warming\' sheep.

My grandparents in Naples, FL had a roof-mounted solar system for their pool. Every decade or so a hurricane would damage or destroy it, though, so they went through something like 3 different systems in the ~35 years they lived there.

Sheesh... that's nuts. We just installed an awning on the front of our house -- hopefully to reduce the AC bills in summer -- and it cost rather more than $90.

I hope your right eye improves...

---Joel

That $90 figure is what they think a contractor would charge, not what you can do it for, yourself. I bought a pair of new, surplus heavy fire rated steel doors for $20 each a few years ago, but if I put it in, they will value it at the retail of almost $500, even though the door was $20, the hinges were $8, and the homemade frame was made from $5 of edge cut scrap 2" * 12"

After two weeks of trying, I can finally open it a tiny bit. The VA doctors said it might heal on its own, in three months, or so. The MRI didn't find any problems, so they said it was "Probably" a palsy. I can see when I hold the lid up, but I have double vision. I missed a ride to the hospital this morning, because I was too sick to get out of bed.

I could build a passive solar collector facing south for about $200, including tying it into the ductwork for the central air. The gas furnace is shot, after years of not being needed, it has a rusted out firebox. Of course, no parts are available, and I really don't want to fool with a propane tank, and deliveries. I am removing the old furnace this fall, and installing a vent fan to use the old flue as a scaled down version of the classic, "Whole house fan" that was so common in Florida, until air conditioning became common.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth\'s aluminum foil beanie for the \'global warming\' sheep.

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That is nuts! Cross FL off the list of places to move (it already was).

Sounds like four of five different "additions" to me. ;-)

Ouch! I hope you're feeling better too! I knew someone who was going through something like that. They were using BoTox on his eyelid muscles - not pretty.

That's one of the reasons I liked my "domestic hot water coil" in the furnace. The thing ran all summer so there was no condensation (or rust).

Keith

They have to do something to make up for the lack of state income tax... that's a significant reason my grandparents moved there back in 1968.

Permits? I know a guy who put up a piece of plywood, painted the image of the peaked roof on it, and added a floor to his house behind that.

John

ficult to

That information should be available on the annual report of any publicly-traded solar cell manufacturer. And annual reports are usually free for anyone who asks for them - in the hope that you will buy their stock

Michael

The county comes around every couple years with a digital camera and crew to measure and take pictures of EVERYTHING. Anything other than fresh paint on a house will raise the property taxes.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth\'s aluminum foil beanie for the \'global warming\' sheep.

Florida is behind the times... here an aerial photo service takes pictures and compares to previous views, and then reports changes to the county :-(

...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave | Due to excessive spam, googlegroups, UAR & AIOE are blocked! |

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