OT: Why welfare doesn't work!

Oh, BTW, mpm, heres another site I found

The following three ideas are equivalent:

a.. Plain English: If A then B. b.. Formal logic: A ? B ... "A implies B" c.. Boolean algebra: B + ? A ... "B or not A" And they are closely related to (i.e. a limiting case of):

a.. Probability: P(B|A) ... "probability of B given A" But as we shall see, those four ideas are not anywhere close to

a.. "A causes B".

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Dude. You are hopelessly lost. Maybe you just don't understand how your original post comes across.? Try re-reading it without any bias whatsoever, or get a friend to read it.

You essentially present 2 ideas:

1 - that welfare is self-prepetuating, and 2 - that the best way to be successful is not to be on welfare.

Both of these ideas have several LOGICAL flaws, even if you provided supporting data (which you didn't).

You go on to ask that we punch holes in the argument, not the "common sense" belief that such an argument might lead to valid conclusions.

For the record, I'm not confusing anything. I understand what you think is correct analysis of the argument structure, but you don't understand how to discredit arguments that contain causal relationship flaws. And that is precisely what you asked us to do.

-mpm

On Sep 7, 4:17=EF=BF=BDam, "Jon Slaughter" wrot= e:

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Wow. That's inventive. I thought the Shoot the Messenger tactic was reserved for Republicans.. :)

I don't have to defend myself. Your comments speak for themselves.

By the way, the podcast is from the Princeton Review. As in Princeton University - you know, the Ivy League school.....

On Sep 7, 4:19=EF=BF=BDam, "Jon Slaughter" wrot= e:

You sure seem awfully defensive...??

On Sep 7, 4:12=EF=BF=BDam, "Jon Slaughter" wrot= e:

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BTW Jon,

I actually don't disagree with your conclusions at all. And there is no personal bias I have concerning persons on welfare, other than I would wish welfare were not necessary. (But it is for some people.)

I do not enjoy the fact that many seem to be on welfare who probably don't need to be, but it doesn't PERSONALLY affect me, other than raising my taxes. And perhaps in other minor ways.

I would like for you to separate your emotional attachment to this discussion. If you can.

You think I'm attacking you. Which I am not. I am merely pointing out that your original post / questions - what was wrong with the argument.

There are a lot of ways you could re-state the whole argument, which would leave it far less open to exactly the sort of causal argument attack which ensued. Such as not jumping to conclusions based on relationships which may, or may not, be valid.

Much as you jumped to the conclusions that I was some wingnut just out to take a minority position on welfare reform.

Have a nice day.

-mpm

In Arizona, the legislature passed a bill requiring able-bodied welfare recipients to work at menial tasks, like picking up trash along the streets, etc.

Some shit-head judge declared it unconstitutional.

Vote Democrat and you'll get more judges like that.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

     Liberals are so cute.  Dumb as a box of rocks, but cute.

Thus speaks the poster who thinks Excel is the answer to all questions ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

                   Liberals are so ignorant...
         They don\'t even know the definition of ignorant

Calling you an asshole is a compliment ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

                   Liberals are so ignorant...
         They don\'t even know the definition of ignorant

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That covers a lot of people I know :)

"

Hey Jim, You know how to spice up my afternoon!

Good show mate!

"

That's due to the fact you're forced to live in a mental institution.

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aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you\'re crazy.

Wow. That's inventive. I thought the Shoot the Messenger tactic was reserved for Republicans.. :)

I don't have to defend myself. Your comments speak for themselves.

By the way, the podcast is from the Princeton Review. As in Princeton University - you know, the Ivy League school.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, I know a few guys from princeton. One has a phd in math but can't solve a simple integral(some might say "but he can solve very difficult problems" and this might be true but the guy doesn't even know/recognize what a fourier transformation is). The schools have went to shit since the liberals have taken over. (not it's not required to be intelligent... you just have to be liberal to get your diploma)

BTW, here's your princeton review:

How are they related to princeton? Oh yeah, the ower "graduated" from there... which somehow qualifies it as?

Go read the section: "Misleading Claims of Instructor Qualification"

You seriously need to think for yourself ;/

Jamie wrote in news:VRVwk.50834$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe06.iad:

You must know a lot of veterans or firemen or so on. That had happened to one of my uncles. After WWII, he became a fireman and had rescued numerous poeple. But on one call, the ladder came loose and he ended up having a sever skull fracture and brain damage - about 1/4 of his skull was steel plate, and he couldn't walk or use his hands much - he was in bad physical shape, so he was on total disability. But he loved music and was something of an audiophile, which at least gave him something enjoyable he could do.

My one sister was an ER nurse; she slipped in a patient's vomit and wrecked her back, so she also got disability - sadly, she was doing some small- scale care (because disability didn't pay all that much), and a flailing patient caused her to be stuck with aneedle, from which she contracted hepatitis; she died from liver failure about 2 years ago.

I know a coupe of other people who did have to go on disability. But all of that is way I think of it separately from welfare.

retty

. I

Wrong. You are one who is confusing correlation with cause and effect

- and you've ignored my arguments suggesting other potential sources of the correlation that you claim to know about, which makes you the innane participant in this particular argument.

You haven't cited any statistics at all so this is a red herring, and in any event a statistically valid correllation would not - of it itself - justify the action you proposed.

Again, you've assumed an explanation for the correllation you claim to know about, and imagine that the correlation implies that explanation

- which it doesn't - and proceed from there to propose that the US demolishes what is left of its already inadequate welfare system.

Since Jon doesn't seem to understand logical implicationa and mpm does, Jon would be well advised to take a few lessons from the nearest crackerjack box - it can't be any worse that whatever source he's relying on at the moment.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

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This is frequently claimed by right wing politicians, who don't like welfare - it limits the effectiveness of the "lockout" as a weapon to persuade workers to go back to work at starvation wages.

I've yet to see any persuasive evidence that this actually happens.

For "excuses", read "reasons".

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If you can't find work, it is rather difficult to organise your life in a way that will teach the child how a conscientious worker would behave. Spending most of the day out of the house costs money, which isn't something readily available to household exisitng on US welfare payments.

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And your evidence for this claim is?

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Your company obviously doesn't discriminate against those whose skills at reading, writing and logic are questionable.

One wonders what they were looking for? One might suspect that right- wing anti-trade union attitudes were more interesting.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

I guess the radar is off on this one.

I'll retract the gear and land else where.

--
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

Our company does not discriminate.

If you were to visit our sight and see what we have working there, you might ask your self how we stay in business.

The applicant that is currently pursuing retribution for a job that he didn't receive applied for an entry level electrician position to perform basic maintenance to keep industrial equipment on a production floor up and running to a minimal degree.

All applicants were required to either have past experience or schooling in the field and take a basic electrical test laid out from a local educational institute that deals in this field.

Most of the test questions simply consisted of items that involves safety issues on the job of an electrician and very basic entry level math in procedures or selecting xfomers, fuses, over loads etc. And some basic work rules safety..

The applicant came to us with a recent degree of what he called entry level EE (electrical Engineering) I really didn't know there was a difference, but what ever. His claims were investigated and verified that he did complete a course that was funded by the local gov. No information was given as to how well he actually did.

We got excited about that because that was much more than we expected to get how ever, after the first time he failed so badly we allowed another retry the following week, and he simply fail the written test just as bad. It was almost like he never even studied.. I think we actually did worse the second time around.

We turn him away and a month later we hired some one that did just fine. The EE applicant came in for any job after that just to fill his quota for a job hunt not really caring if we offered him a job or not. The receptionist made a mistake indicating that the job he applied for was filled.

I guess that is when the crap started to roll, now we have been in constant contact at least 2 times a week with the local job service.

This failed applicant no longer wants a job (any job) with us, he now just wants the money that he things he's entitled to.

It gets bad when you can no longer decide who you want working for you.

This problem has nothing to do with unions. Our union has no control over any one's welfare where I work until the employee has successfully satisfied the company after 60 days.

In some situations, unions can cause a lot of damage by protecting those that don't deserve a job.

"

I thought this thread was going to be about corporate welfare.

Sorry. Never mind me. Carry on.

-- Paul Hovnanian mailto: snipped-for-privacy@Hovnanian.com

------------------------------------------------------------------ politics; n, from the Greek 'poly' meaning many and 'ticks', small annoying blood suckers.

Jamie wrote in news:gd0xk.50926$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe06.iad:

[snip]

um..., I'm prob being socially, er, problematic then - I have Asperger's and, tho' I've learned to cope fairly well, I do have real communication disconnects sometimes. So it's probably my plane that's flying backwards...arrgh!