OT: TINSTAFFL

When the government is in charge of deciding who gets health care, suddenly everyone is sick!

Nowhere is this concept more apparent than on the Greek island of Zakynthos, where 1.8% of the population, an unusually large proportion, has made disability claims for blindness. (About 0.3% of the U.S. population is legally blind, according to Centers for Disease Control data.) The Wall Street Journal this morning reported fraudulent disability claims cost Greece hundreds of millions of euros a year.

To crack down on disability fraud, the Greek government required claimants to show up in person to register their names in a centralized database? resulting in 36,000 fewer claims nationwide last year. Of 700 Zakynthians collecting blindness benefits, only 190 registered. "It appears the 'blind' of Zakynthos saw only the color of money," a Greek newspaper reports.

The mayor of Zakynthos was pelted with yogurt when discussing the disability fraud crackdown at a recent public appearance. It makes me wonder? Here in the northwest U.S., our economies are as mired in government waste as any in the country. I'd hate to get hit with a

100-pound salmon. Remind me not to discuss austerity measures in public.

When you give things away to people who didn't earn them, you've eliminated any potential downside. So all they see is upside, the stuff they can buy with free money or the services they can get without paying for them. When people must earn what they consume, they tend to see things differently. They see what they must do without in order to get what they want. They immediately become students of Economics 101, balancing endless wants against the finite amounts of money and time available to satisfy them.

When you take away the risk of misallocating resources, resources get misallocated all over the place. That's what Europe is teaching the world right now, if we'd only listen? Obamacare will be even worse than Greek disability fraud. Health care is more abundant and much bigger business here. (The U.S. is No. 1 worldwide in health care spending per capita.) That feeds the illusion that it ought to be free of charge or otherwise cheaper for everyone. If the Supreme Court doesn't strike down Obamacare, you'll find out quickly how expensive health care becomes when you give it away.

Reply to
Robert Baer
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It doesn't seem to happen anywhere else in Europe where the highest health care costs - in Switzerland - are only 71% of the US level.

Greece has a remarkably corrupt civil service. This is scarcely the only area in which the Greek administration has fallen short, and it's unwise to use it as evidence about the economics of universal health care outside of the - particularly dire - Greek context.

But not yet on the Greek scale, though you do seem to coming closer to emulating them than most.

If this is the case, why is European health uniformly cheaper - per head - than US health care? France and Germany provide about the same level of health care for everybody that you provide only to the fully insured and do it at about 2/3rds of the price per head.

As with US malpractice insurance - US health care is consequently extravagantly defensive. It doesn't do the patients any good, but makes it easier for the malpractice insurance company lawyers to defend their clients in malpractice suits.

Only if you hire civil servants who are as corruptible as their Greek equivalents to administer it.

But oddly low in the pecking order when it comes to public health statistics.

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All the available evidence shows that it actually becomes cheaper - once you've got the health insurance companies under government control, it seems that you can rein in their extravagance and get their administrative costs under control. Canadian studies on why US health care is so absurdly expensive do point the finger at the remarkably high administrative spending within the US health care insurance business.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

Robert Baer wrote in news:r_WdnT42GftgXebSnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@posted.localnet:

it's TANSTAAFL; "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch." Robert A. Heinlein,from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Reply to
Jim Yanik

Yep. It can't possibly be TINSTAAFL, that would be elitist grammar correctness, but politically incorrect... an oxymoron ;-) ...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

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| 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Reply to
Jim Thompson

"There isn't any such thing as a free lunch" - TIASTAAFL - is probably the grammatically correct version, but doesn't read as easily as TANSTAAFL. Heinlein was a total failure as a political philosopher, but he could write quite well enough to avoid such infelicities.

What right-wing nitwits seem to miss is that universal health care isn't any kind of free lunch, but the optimal solution to the problem of minimising infectious diseases in densely populated areas.

If they weren't hung up on ideology, they'd notice that US health care is the most expensive - per head - on the planet, and doesn't deliver any better health care to the fully insured US clients than the French and German systems deliver to everybody, at about two-thirds of the price per head.

For the US population as whole, it generates about the same level of public health performance as Cuba achieves while spending - per head - just 4% of what the US does.

The less-than-universal US health care system generated a lot more cases of drug-resistant tuberculosis than the universal health care systems in Europe.

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The relatively high incidence of HIV infections in parts of the US didn't help

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The right-wing nitwit approach to regard health care concentrates of the services delivered to individual patients. In reality, society needs a good - ideally universal - health care system primarily to minimise the chance that an outbreak of infectious disease will turn into a plague.

The system has to deal with the health problems of individuals because this is the only way to get them into the habit of going to hospital as soon as they feel sick. Once you've trained them to do that, you know that if they do come down with something dangerous and infectious they'll bring themselves to the hospital where they can be locked up in an isolation ward at the earliest as possible moment, minimising the number of other people they infect.

When there isn't a plague around, hospitals and the whole health care system keep themselves busy treating sick individuals who are mostly suffering from something that isn't particularly infectious, in the same way - if rather more usefully - that the defence forces keep themselves busy planning how they would defend the country if somebody actually attacked it.

Worrying about the economics of caring for the sick is sensible, but it has to be seen as secondary to maintaining a health care system that can minimise the risk of plagues. SARS and bird flu didn't manage to match the Spanish flu, but evolution is going to keep on trying.

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-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

For the grammar to be correct, it would have to be TIASTAAFL, anyway. (And this is really _Thompson_ complaining about elites? Nah, must be a pseud.) ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

And the double-negative ;-) ...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

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| 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Reply to
Jim Thompson

  • Disability CLAIMS come from the morally corrupt(ed) populace - NOT civil service.
  • Do not hold your breath, OBAMACARE illegally forces everyone to participate.
  • It also does the doctors no good; kill the lawyers and rates will plummet like a twenty ton lead brick.
  • That is a guarantee..TSA being the biggest, most corrupt and illegal boondoggle so far.
  • Need a more efficient way of killing people t lower the population.

  • This will ADD to that due to the UNFUNDED MANDATES and "oversight" groups aka government control that you so love.
Reply to
Robert Baer

The "I" can also stand for "isn't"...

Reply to
Robert Baer

..then use CO2 moron instead of the O2 moron.

Reply to
Robert Baer

Robert Baer wrote in news:tLydneuMmN_oeuHSnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@posted.localnet:

but it's NOT ACCURATE.(as a quote,nor as the proper acronym.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Reply to
Jim Yanik

Jim's being pedantic. Latin makes the double negative an affirmative, but in Germanic languages, including English, it's just a more emphatic negative.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

I prefer the H2 moron, or the CH4 moron. More inflammatory ;-)

-- "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." (Richard Feynman)

Reply to
Fred Abse

Ain't no double negatives allowed in these parts!

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Don't pay him no never mind.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

..and CS2 moron..

Reply to
Robert Baer

Carbon disulphide is very nasty stuff - very easy to burn. It's self- ignition temperature is only 90 Celcius.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

Too smelly ;-)

--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence 
over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
                                       (Richard Feynman)
Reply to
Fred Abse

Let's go whole hog, C2H2 maroon.

?-)

Reply to
josephkk

What a quadroon. ;-)

?-)

Reply to
josephkk

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