OT: MS OS's

I understand exactly why they do that, but it still pisses me off. And you *know* it's just a byte or two in the BIOS that controls that - the trick is knowing where to hammer.

I know thermite is strong stuff, but do you think you have enough volume in the typical card to do any good? Especially in the new, skinny 34 mm cards. I think you might do better to have a box the size of a 2.5" hard drive, with a flash drive crammed into one end of it and the thermite taking up the rest of the volume. Putting it in the optical drive bay would give you even more room, but who has optical drives these days?

Oh look! The little purple light is flashing again!

I'm trying not to spread FUD, and for sure I don't want to tell people to upgrade to 8. I think that if somebody is dead set on upgrading from XP, 7 is probably a better choice right now.

One of the things I've heard, but haven't looked up at MS, is that they plan to open up the XP activation servers, so if you do run XP, it will always pass WGA.

I have a pet theory that one of the jobs of 8 is to be a club that MS can beat the corporate customers with. MS tried to get everybody to upgrade to Vista and that didn't work. Then MS tried 7, and it seems like corporate customers upgraded to it by attrition, but didn't dump their working XP machines. The "your OS is two versions back" line didn't work, because the customers clearly weren't going to buy 7, and Vista wasn't great. Now, with 8, MS can say "your OS is *three* versions back!" and maybe scare corporate customers into at least upgrading to 7.

My attitude and knowledge (or lack thereof) might be partly explained by the fact that I am not paid by anyone to support Windows. I have exactly two Windows machines that I support for free - mine and my parents', both XP. I use either 7 or Linux at work, but I don't have to support the 7 myself.

Yeah, I noticed that too.

I don't know how much market share OS X will pick up, since the price premium for the hardware is steep IMHO. If a new PC is $400 and the equivalent Mac is $500 or $600, I think a certain chunk of PC owners would seriously consider and probably buy the fruit. If the equivalent Mac is $800+, I think most PC owners will sigh and buy another PC. Or maybe an Android tablet, or a Chromebook.

I bought a $100 refurb XP box because that was the fastest and cheapest way to run the tax software I use, a few years ago when they arbitrarily made the installer fail if it detected W2K. I tried Wine but it wasn't quite ready to run that app yet, and at the time, I didn't have an XP license or media to put in a VM. It will be interesting to see if the

2013 version of this software arbitrarily refuses to work on XP.

At a previous job, a few of the engineers still had W2K on their desks as late as 2012. Everything they had would *work* on XP and probably on 7; they just didn't want to go through the week or so of unproductive time of getting everything changed over. One of them changed over when the boss finally bought a replacement for his older PC; the boss was smart enough to time the new PC when the engineer was sort of between projects.

In a corporate environment, with somebody else running the firewall and antivirus, I think keeping the old version is not an unreasonable approach. On Uncle Fred's PC, with 1.5 mbit DSL, IE with seventeen toolbars, and Outhouse, I think maybe it's not such a good idea.

Matt Roberds

Yes, these issues are true of nearly any major update to Windows, including XP! When XP first came out it was vilified. But people came around without too much trouble. Very few people upgrade existing machines.

The real problem with Vista was two fold, one was that UAC (as you talk about below) and all the protections were turned on by default while in XP the protections were there, but turned off by default. MS had been warning people to use these protections and the various impacts it would have ever since Win2k. But the developers didn't listen and so Vista "broke" a lot of existing code.

The other problem with Vista was that it required updates to drivers for many peripehrals and the makers just didn't feel like doing this for legacy products (meaning ones they didn't sell anymore which is anything more than 6 months old). This caused a lot of backlash as users had to replace perfectly good printers, etc.

There's all sorts of hype about all sorts of things.

The UI is just the *default* UI. You can return the machine very easily to "classic" mode. Come on, even MS isn't *that* stupid!

BTW, this was written on a Vista laptop. But in all honesty, I am planning to buy a new one sometime soon and once I am comfortably settled in my new home machine, I will put a new drive in this one and give the dreaded Linux a try.

--

Rick

...snip...

You can just turn it off. The only thing you will find is a tiny icon in your system tray that if you open it, gives a warning that UAC is turned off.

That is more than I am using. I design FPGAs on this machine... or did. It is definitely time for an upgrade after five years. (some overly hot AMD CPU with 3 GB of ram and a hard drive that has been on "last legs" for four years now)

Or just give it Vista from the start and not worry about it. The only issue I can see is that every version of Windows tweeks the controls for networking and many other features. If you are the guy doing support you might not want to add any versions you don't want to learn about. If deleting Vista from the repertoire saves trouble personally, then it might be worth it. But don't do it because someone said Vista is a "bad seed".

BTW, Vista did improve many of the networking controls. I find it much easier to get on various Wi-fi hotspots than my friend who is running XP still. When it goes right we are both on in a jiffy. When it doesn't go right I have a lot more options for resetting this and redoing that to stir it into functionality. I expect this is true for a number of control features. I think Windows 7 is better still.

Why wouldn't they have volume licenses for Win8? What do businesses use? I can't imagine they are letting them stick with 7. With Vista there was *big* push back by companies and once they stopped selling XP they only way you could get it was to pay extra for Ultimate Vista which included downgrade rights. Amazingly ballsy marketing.

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Rick

One thing you have to give (some, not much) credit to them is that a surprising amount of stuff *does* continue to work from version to version. Sure, they break lots of parts of the API with each release but, given MS's arrogance, I'm surprised its not far more and not far more INTENTIONALLY!

I'm "significantly obsessed" with making sure *I* don't need to change some key API in some of the things I'm working on "after release" as it would be a PITA to have to be tied to an initial set of assumptions (in the original, "faulty" API) *and* a subsequently revised API... forever!

[...]

It's the same for Windows 8/7 I think. A company I help out with computers mandates "no windows 8" by their head office. On new laptops you have to buy windows 8 *pro*, which comes with "downgrade" rights to windows 7. So what you buy is a "preinstalled downgrade", i.e. it comes up with windows 7 out of the box. For an extra ~$100 of course.

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John Devereux

I think XP might end up being the tail that wagged the dog. And, the MS fear may be that they can't get people *off* XP. If there are "enough" seats at stake, app vendors may opt to continue to support XP in their products -- providing LESS pressure on those seats to "upgrade". And, third parties may decide to step in to support XP

*without* MS's involvement.

E.g., instead of patching binaries to fix security holes, investing in better IDS, firewalls, etc. Let them *have* security holes -- just don't let anything tickle them! If that sort of thing happens, a customer may realize they have conveniently sidestepped the MS tax! That they can continue to run their old apps on their old hardware without the expense (hardware, software, installation, training) that comes with that artificially imposed update cycle!

For a company whose desktop market is already shrinking, this could pull the rug out from under it!

I think we may see a move to bring the cloud "closer to home". E.g., corporate entities serving apps from big servers to lots of *simple* devices (just UI's). And, the same sort of thing in the home -- one "real machine" tucked in a closet with multiple satellites throughout the house. *Many* instead of "just a couple" (i.e., check your email from the kitchen!)

[This is the approach I've taken with my automation server -- lots of cheap UI's that you can litter the house with and all the "smarts" behind a closed closet door]

See above. It boils down to how much the app developers believe MS's FUD. The risk they run is a competitor continuing to support XP and their customers migrating to the competitor for that reason alone!

I had W2K/W2KS/W2K3 running here until last XMAS -- then moved to XP. SWMBO still runs W2K on her primary machine and has threatened me with grievous bodily harm if I ever change that! She has no desire to have to rewrite all her Access databases for some newer version of MSOffice, etc.

Exactly. And, that *hopes* "everything" actually *would* work on XP. Each "upgrade" I have lost *something*. Or, been forced to purchase upgraded apps -- that just change the bugs I'll have to deal with, not eliminate them!

OTOH, if there are multiple seats in Fred's house, a $100 appliance may prove to be the cheapest alternative! Imagine AV *in* that appliance (instead of in each of your machines).

The days of MS's stranglehold are past. Gates was smart to get out BEFORE being seen as presiding over MS's demise.

[attrs elided]

From a URL Jeff provided (Jeff always seems to have an endless supply of URL's on hand! :> )

You won't be notified before any changes are made to your computer. If you're logged on as an administrator, programs can make changes to your computer without you knowing about it.

If you're logged on as a standard user, any changes that require the permissions of an administrator will automatically be denied.

If you select this setting, you'll need to restart the computer to complete the process of turning off UAC. Once UAC is off, people that log on as administrator will always have the permissions of an administrator.

The first P threw me, for a moment. But, I guess this is *exactly* how XP works. The Admin/mere mortal distinction gives nothing to mere mortals (except an error reminding them that they ARE mere mortals) and no real cautions to Admins regarding THEIR actions (or the actions of programs running with their credentials!)

I seem to find laptops having identical characteristics to workstations always seem slower. Of course, some of it is undoubtedly due to differences in the umpteen varieties of processors supplied. And, no doubt, any resource throttling that the laptop would tend to opt for (power consumption).

And, disk tend to be slower (the drives in my workstation are 15K). I'm not savvy enough to comment on things like floating point support...

I.e., if I had to *bet*, I'd imagine I could do 3D renderings faster on a "slower" desktop machine than this laptop (?)

What about support? (both from MS and from "peers") I.e., I'm not doing them a favor if thee isn;t someone "nearby" that can tell them "what this particular (error) message means"... I don't think I

*know* anyone who runs Vista! But, am I the exception?

No idea. They're a nonprofit. In general, that means you take whatever someone is willing to *give* you! You don't "budget" to upgrade your computers every N years but, rather, upgrade whenever "new(er)" computers fall into your lap! :> You don't evaluate different software products to find what's best for your needs but, rather, use whatever you can get.

If some business wants to donate "office dividers" and they are YELLOW, you either decide to pass on them ... or, get used to lots of yellow in your office! :> ("Well, we'd prefer a neutral beige...")

*Cash* goes to pay salaries, utilities and other less-negotiable aspects of The Mission.

For all I know, MS would *gladly* give them W8 licenses. Or not. I don't want to stick my head up high enough to get dragged into those sorts of discussions. :> Tell me what you have and what you'd like *done*. I'll try to find the sweet spot that avoids unnecessary expenses... WITHIN THOSE CONSTRAINTS! (how *I* would do these things for my own personal goals may be entirely different!)

Yeah -- one thing about PCs (in terms of hardware and software), and OSS as well, is the diversity of things they work with. How many millions of DOS and Windows drivers have been written over the years?

Not something Apple has to worry much about with their proprietary platforms (Mac, etc.), let alone, say, game consoles (Nintendo, Xbox, Playstation..), which rarely have any hardware attached at all. I think the worst in that line was all the add-ons for the Sega Genesis, and those were OEM design, still not crazy. There were various on-cartridge accelerators in the same era, like the SNES' FX chip, but that only had to work on a single, well-defined platform.

And then add to that the diversity of software that PCs run -- in Windows alone for one, but when the OS gets involved, you have how many thousands of flavors of *nix kernel, many of them custom tweaked? Hardware is bad enough, but I can't imagine trying to reconcile all those systems in the midst of a (relatively) dynamic codebase like Linux.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs 
Electrical Engineering Consultation 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

Don't tell me -- MS actually made an OS that was *too good* for their own good?

For shame! :D

I've walked through places that still had, what looked like Win98 machines hanging around the offices. Well.. if it ain't broke, why fix it? If it does e-mail, corporate database (which may include intranet browsing) and spreadsheets, who needs anything past, say, Office '97?

Now, if internet browsing is permitted (or required), computers that old just aren't going to be able to keep up with current version HTTP, HTML, XML, CSS, and the dearth of scripts and scripting languages used to run them.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs 
Electrical Engineering Consultation 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

How many millions of man-hours gone? :>

Being able to control your universe makes life considerably easier. OTOH, it means *you* have to do everything! Come up with every innovation, etc.

Consider how fractured things were in the days of DOS when "clever" programmers could hook all sorts of not-intended-to-be-hooked things to take the "system" in directions that hadn't previously been envisioned.

[Worse yet, recall the abortions in the CP/M era -- delightful enhancements in many cases but each stressful to the OS maintainers]

The *good* thing is that much modern hardware tends to be cookie-cutter designs. I.e., every UART is wired to the bus the exact same way. No one swaps or inverts an address line -- even if it is convenient for their design! "That's not the way it is done" (a custom driver will be required even though you are using an OTS device with standard behaviors).

Ah, but they could be easily converted to *appliances* and that other functionality moved elsewhere! I do much of my work on a little X terminal. All it has to do is draw letters and images/geometrics on the\screen and pass my keystrokes up the network. *No* maintenance required. Regardless of whether I have 1 or 100!

All I can add, is that if you plan on using group policy, or not making the user login for the kids an Administrator, I would use either Vista or 7. Not sure how/if you plan to manage the computers in any centralized way.

As far as UAC goes it is can easily be turned off or managed via group policy like any other windows feature.

Mark

Your point is to avoid XP because there are inevitably Admin tasks that have to be performed (and a nonAdmin account would deprive XP users of those abilities while Vista/7 would at least give them the opportunity -- after a warning?

I had planned on giving them passwords for a normal "User" account along with a tedious password for Administrator (tedious to discourage its casual use -- until they realized they could change it to something LESS tedious! :> )

These will be scattered so centralized admin isn't practical. And, I don't want to get dragged into that role!

"I'll set up your TV for you but I'm NOT making the popcorn each night!"

OK. So, given 7 costs them a license, opt for Vista over XP (which apparently is also "free" in the Vista license)?

Sheesh! This is tedious!

Thx,

--don

I'd suggest you suck it and see if you have a legit Vista copy. I never had to much bother with Vista once SP1 was applied - out of the box was potentially disastrous on some hardware especially portables. It got a very bad reputation early on and it stuck despite later improvements.

I probably wouldn't be installing XP on newly acquired kit at this late stage though - you are making work for yourself come April 2014!

Some deserved and some not. YMMV

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown

Win7 and Vista have the nice feature of prompting you for the admin password when trying to perform a priv task. Very good if a teacher is going to easily type an admin password to say, install a new program, without having to switch users. Also the isolated storage system works much better in Vista and 7. Users with non-priv accounts will have less issues with apps requesting the admin password.

Not sure why everyone seems to like XP so much. I have a number of automated test equipment controllers which still run XP and I pull my hair out every time I have to use one. I upgraded to Vista and then to Window 7 and will never look back. Haven't tried 8 yet.

Yes, I used to work at an elementry school. It's never fun, even if you're getting paid. You get blamed for everything by everybody. Oh, little johny just jamed paper clips into the cdrom, thats my fault because teacher can't play her disc now.

Martin Brown's post below pretty much sums up my fealings on it.

All of the above. Familiarity with XP, definitely baaad reports from IT pros on Vista (and not just driver unavailability), and not forgetting the usual MS grunt curve - every step forward in machine grunt is immediately absorbed by the step in OS.

Yes, several IT pros (including #3 son) labelled Vista as "one step forward, two steps back" and suggested if MS ever fixed it it would be a year or more. I didn't want to wait.

Still haven't used Vista. Around this place, it is all XP and Win 7 (and a legacy Win98SE box).

Hi Don, late to the thread... We've got Vista on a home laptop. (Gift from Granma.) It works as well as other MS OP's. :^) No real complaints. My son wants an upgrade to windows 7.. which is what he uses in school (7th grade)

George H.

It's gonna be very interesting to see what effect that has. Suddenly, all those computers on the way to the scrap heap become viable pirated XP machines. Many of those have way more capability than many people need today.

OK. Convenience.

Not sure I understand this -- or how it relates back to XP's implemetation?

In my case, it's not a "liking" for XP as much as a reluctance to move forward! :> Each time I upgrade, I lose something in the process. Some peripheral needs a new driver -- but it isn't available (manufacturer's solution? buy a new one!). Some app doesn't quite work right (vendor's solution? buy a NEW set of bugs).

E.g., I hang onto a 386 ISA machine solely to support some old tools that I would be foolish to repurchase, today. I hang onto a laptop with a floppy so I can write 720K (!) diskettes for the PROM programmer. I'm not keen on rebuying all the kit I've accumulated in 35 years! :<

I would have stayed with the W2K-ish products but finally decided the hardware it was running on was getting long in the tooth. And, foolish to go looking for W2K drivers for machines 10 years newer!

OTOH, stepping directly to 7 (or 8!) I am *sure* would have cost me a fair bit in terms of "assets". Even just the time to download newer versions of all those tools (ignoring the cost).

And they want it *now*!

I am trying to be very "stealthy" in these activities. I don't even want folks to know it is *me* that is doing them -- lest I get the uninvited, "Oh, when you get a chance, can you look at..."!

[In nonprofits/charities, it seems like folks are not embarrassed to bluntly ask for your time. Part of that may be because they figure the people "around" are already giving their time so its just a "change of task" and not an "increased workload/imposition". And, I suspect part is a learned mindset -- they learn not to be timid when asking for cash donations, etc. so why be timid when asking for *time*?! :< ]

Or spilled a beverage... or dropped the laptop... or tore the power connector off the back... or...

You're supposed to be able to fix all these problems -- magically. So they don't have to think about them or regret their errors! :>