Net neutrality

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

In some cases, yes -- in rural areas I believe public funds do directly pay for cabling, fiber, and satellite access equipment. In more metropolitan areas, it's a bit more indirect, such as the city maintaining the tunnels or roads that house/protect all the cables.*

I'd admit to not really being up the specifics of all this (and as John Larkin points out, the ISPs do pay "rent" to use the power poles and tunnels as well), but in the end there really are some public dollars in there AFAICT.

---Joel

• Where I work here, we're building a new building the next town down the (I-5) road. We've been amazed at all the extra fees the city gets -- something like k for a "traffic impact fee" and another k or somesuch for a "park access fee" (the building is within ready walking disty of the part). No doubt this is even worse in places like San Francisco or Phoenix!

Where? At most there are easements to allow power and telephone companies to place poles or trench. Many towns require rent for such things, aka, taxes on your phone, electric, gas and water bills.

...Jim Thompson

About five years ago, I was considering building a house out in Borrego Springs. We are talking "You go to the middle of nowhere, hang a right, and go for half an hour" out in the boonies. It was $45K in fees, permits, access rights, etc. BEFORE YOU EVEN BROKE GROUND! This was for a $300K house, so greater than 10% of the cost was just in fees...

Charlie

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

See, e.g.,

$2B in "grants and loans" can buy a lot of fiber. :-)

Obama bull s*it. Show me some substantive references pre-ObamaCaesar.

BTW, Joel, How are you planning on surviving the Great Depression II ?:-) ...Jim Thompson

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Well, surely you don't dispute that the early origins of the Internet were largely taxpayer funded, do you?

Here's a link for you:

Hmm... the couple dozen chickens we have wouldn't last long...

My mother does have a nice place in NZ, perhaps? :-)

But honestly, even if there is another great depression in the financial sense, if we can get the jobless rate under control I don't think I'll need to start packing heat: Give people something to do during the day and at least enough money to feed, cloth, and put a roof over their heads, and even if the dollar has become so devalued that you're now buying tickets to a movie set in Europe rather than actually being able to travel there, you largely avoid civil unrest.

---Joel

Now you're switching from infrastructure to vague leftist thoughts ;-)

Worst case I'll go back to the Thompson farm, still manned by relatives that are capable of having revenuers disappear ;-) ...Jim Thompson

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

You're right -- after about a minute of Googling didn't result in any really solid evidence, I'm just clinging to what I want to be true based on (mostly) hearsay. :-)

Mmm, yes, I suppose that's workable...

On the off-chance you end up not having much paying work to do someday, I'm still hoping you'll start working on a roadshow where you demonstrate some advanced design skills or writing a book or something...

Ever heard of Dennis Feucht? He once worked at Tektronix, and has written one of really no more than about three books regarding high-speed board-level design (yeah, I know, his idea of "high speed" is quite pedestrian to a chip designer such as yourself...):

---Joel

Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

maybe a lot of fiber,but not the manpower to install it,nor the equipment to DRIVE the fiber. BTW,loans have to be paid back. to do that,one must charge more.

TANSTAAFL.

Also,I note that currently,utility companies charge dual rates;one basic rate,and a higher rate for usage over some set limit. That is EXACTLY what the ISPs are proposing. They don't care -what- the data is,just how much of it a person is comsuming thru *their* plant.

And it IS *their* plant. It doesn't matter that the backbone is the public Internet,they are in the business of selling access to that Internet. You don't like what they charge,you take your business elsewhere,start your own ISP business and do a "better job",or go without.

Think of the recharging stations that electric cars will need. Sure,the utility owns the electric distribution grid,but a private company is going to be installing,operating,and servicing the stations,and doing the billing.THEY will determine what rate they charge,just as a gas station determines what it will charge for a gallon of gas,even though the gas all comes thru the SAME pipeline.

Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

SO WHAT? the grid that connects it all together TODAY is not "largely taxpayer funded",it was funded by businesses and investors.These days,the data lines are all privately financed,built,and owned. Same for the ISPs.

Do you have broadband in that cave, yet? :)

The Thompson family owns Seneca Caverns. My father and my Uncle Wilmer wired it for lighting when they were teenagers. They used to play pranks on each other... cut the power and see how long the other took to get out ;-)

My understanding is that various DC big-wigs have bought farms up there for summer homes, so I'd guess there's Internet. It's only about a 3 hour drive from DC. Beautiful in the Summer, colder than a witch's tit in Winter :-) ...Jim Thompson

Have they installed wireless routers inside the caverns, yet? That way you can enjoy the cool air, and still get online. :)

Good thinking. :-) I'll have to visit Jims family's cave if I ever find myself in West Virginia... I have a poster on a wall at home with various show caves around the U.S., and I'm pretty sure Seneca Caverns is on it.

There were pay phones at the bottom of Carlsbad Cavern in New Mexico when I was there -- by now I wouldn't be surprised if they'd pulled those out and stuck WiFi in its place! (The room with the phones is huge -- thousands of square feet; there's also food & drink available. One exit is is via elevator or stares -- the other is the long walk back to the main cave entrance with the ridiculously insane number of bats hanging out.)

---Joel

This is at 4800', just a few miles from the highest point in the state of WV, so it's never HOT. ...Jim Thompson

But it does rain & snow outside. :(

Is Kartchner Caverns (AZ) on your list?

I've been there twice with Scout troops.

The Great Room is open now, so I'll probably go back in the Fall. It's near Tombstone, and I like to go to the annual Earp celebration ;-) ...Jim Thompson

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Yep! I was there a bit over a decade ago, after having been sent off to a "How to Write Windows Device Drivers" class in Phoenix. (Ironically, by the time the project this was for actually got moving -- a couple years later --, we had transitioned from Windows NT to Windows 2000 and they sent me to the newly updated version of the exact same class... in San Jose, that time.)

I hiked the nature trail around the caverns afterwards, and was treated to a

I finally got pulled over for speeding on the drive back to Phoenix, but the guy just gave me a warning, which was nice.

Sounds fun. There was a silver mine, I think it was, that I wanted to tour as well but I just ran out of time: Kartchner Caverns was something like the Sunday before class began, and then the Friday night after class finished I drove up to see the Grand Canyon... toured it on Saturday, and then visited the big meteor crater outside of Flagstaff at some *very* early (for me) morning hour -- they actually opened at something like 7AM, and I had just enough time to go and wander around a bit before heading back to Phoenix for the flight out somewhere around noon.

--Joel

Yeah, I do. The first BBSs (Bulletin Board Systems) were on private lines; admittedly phone company wires, but they weren't subsidized, merely regulated.

And the seeds of USENET started up between two unis with mainframes, and two of the profs would exchange basketball scores over a leased line.

When the infrastructure was pretty much in place, then DARPAnet got started on the taxpayers' (i.e., your) dime, but the foundation was already there.

Hope This Helps! Rich