lithium fires

And he will somehow mention Trump.

I wonder if the flood of cheap batteries, combined with batteries aging, will increase the number of fires.

San Francisco is very hilly so we have lots of ebikes and scooters and other weird things. And it's mostly wooden town-house type housing with nowhere to park things outdoors.

We had a giant grid-scale battery fire near here at Moss Landing in January. They were NMC chemistry, not lithium. I think storing two high-energy reactants in the same can is inherently risky.

John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics

The enthusiasm with which the fossil carbon industry spends money on getting the popular press to publicise any occasion when a lithium battery catches fire is remarkable, but not exactly surprising.

Properly designed battery condition monitors should be able to detect when a lithium battery is warm enough to be at risk of thermal runaway, (about about 120C) and should be able to discharge it a rate rate that won't get it any hotter

Electric bikes and electric scooters don't always have properly designed battery condition monitors, and some owners do like to fiddle with equipment they don't understand.

"The enclosed facility was inside the building, a condition that may have contributed to spread of the fire, as opposed to the majority of batteries which are located outside in separate modules, where fire spread is more difficult and easier to mitigate".

Storing two high-energy reactants in the same can is inherently risky, but if you put in proper battery condition monitors, you can greatly reduce the risks.

Having a bunch of internal combustion engine cars in a parking lot is also inherently risky. The gasoline in their gas tank is easy to ignite, and they do catch fire from time to time.

Are the fires fictional?

Does the average New York apartment often get to 120c?

Runaway starts as a microscopic punch through of the separator and the flame front expands in all directions at centimers per second.

Do the math on that.

Like charging them? Or just parking them?

Brilliant. Patent that idea.

John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics

Lithium iron is pretty foolproof. Lithium Ion cells don't play nice under any kind of misuse or mechanical damage.

I understand that the new cylindrical cells for Tesla packs will be LiFePO4.

RL

I like it when they criticize a storage method (in a photograph ?) without bothering to state what the correct method is.

Airheads regurgitating google search results to fill space.

RL

Obviously not, but they do get a lot more attention than fires caused by internal combustion engine cars and motor-cycles

A battery indulging in end-stage self-discharge can.

It makes more sense to do the math on the preceding stage where a metal whisker grows long enough to force itself most of the way through the separator. If the battery is self-discharging fast enough to get warm, the separator gets softer, which contributes to the process.

Fiddling with the charging arrangements was what I had in mind.

It has been obvious to those skilled in the art for quite some time, to the point where a relatively unskilled person like me sees it as obvious. I did once patent an idea which had initially struck me as obvious, but that was before we had google.

Why didn't you quibble about that too?

As an electrical engineer, I find the hazards of lithium batteries to be interesting. What do you do?

John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics

John Larkin flatters himself. The popular press publishes all the stories it can find about lithium battery fires because the fossil carbon extraction industry pays them to do that - they want people to be nervous about electric cars catching on fire, even thought internal combustion engine cars catch on fire more frequently.

John is a gullible sucker for all fossil carbon extraction industry propaganda - if he had paid more attention when he was being trained to become an electrical engineer he might incidentally have learned how to do critical thinking, but he concentrated on acquiring skills he thought that he could sell.

Most lithoum battery related fires seem to occur in refuse processing facilities when discarded vapes are crushed. John

Not sure what you're asking.

In this case, a photo of loosely stacked 18650 cells - some obviously post-removal, with fuzzy terminals.

A - You don't loosely stack batteries. Always in a container to avoid mech damage. Do not remove from one container without establishing where they're going first - ie another platform, jig or container.

B - You pay attention to polarity. All one way in storage.

C - You don't associate cells of unknown capacity/terminal voltage.

D - Equalization procedures must be followed before storage or employment of single or grouped cells. Odd or damaged cells identified during this procedure should be isolated and either repaired or scrapped

E - Scrapped cells should be terminal-wrapped and labelled prior to disposal at a dedicated facility.

RL

You, Donald Trump and John Larkin all think the same on that subject, as do quite a few other gullible idiots.

John Larkin has made the same claim. It's obviously nonsense. You both find me intellectually arrogant - ignorant dimwits do resent having their more blatant errors corrected - but there is a big difference between pointing out obvious errors, and claiming that one knows everything. It may not look so big if you don't know much to start with.

What do you do?

John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics

Ok, I see, you are the King Of Usenet and make all the rules.

How's the pay?

John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics

That's the 4680 cell.

RL

Keeping on topic - the new Tesla 4680 cells are LiFePO4. Pretty idiot-proof, but can still be overcharged, over- discharged etc etc etc.

A good battery balance system usually prevents pack damage, in use.

RL

Grid-scale batteries, even if they make no economic sense, can eventually be made pretty safe. The public hazard is billions of super-cheap lithium batteries in super-cheap gadgets that blow up in apartments or airplane overhead bins.

And as they age, I expect their detonation rate to increase.

I'm considering what's basically a front-panel smart power switch, with some CMOS logic powered by a Tadiran primary lithium battery. That's a lithium thionyl chloride chemistry that's safe but has too high an internal impedance to run serious loads. They do guarantee 40 year output. The alternative is a rechargable battery or a supercap, but the Tadiran looks best.

John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics

And is obsessed with DT and JL.

I don't think he has an oscilloscope.

John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics

Not that Jan can give an example of my snipping things that prove me wrong. And factual descriptions aren't insults, much as Jan And John might like them to be.

John Larkin is sensitive to occasional observations about himself and Donald Trump. "Obsession" involves not payoing attention to anything else.

I've got one of those gadgets that plugs into the USB port on my computer. I haven't used it for years - I have mentioned this here in recent years, but John doesn't remember inconvenient details.