Legal question

clause:

Easy. Cross it out and walk if they balk. I would never sign up for a liability. People get burned all the time. Both sides of the fence (contractor/client) take their lumps and move on.

The client can always sue the designer, but the cost of suing is generally the same as just paying another engineer to do the project. Remember, to sue a designer, you need an expert witness, which is ta da, another designer.

It's not clear who came first, the chicken or the egg, or who was consulting... ;-)

True.

Hourly ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

So... let me see if I have my history correct... Exar and Interdesign started at roughly the same time, doing roughly the same thing (semi-custom ASICs, both analog and digital)... and Exar sometimes found it easier to copy Interdesign parts than bother to design their own?

Yeah, understood.

Did any do it for analog designs though?

At least MOSIS has a handful of analog processes...

---Joel

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

I figure a decent strategy is to do design simulations using the vendor-supplied physical design kit in SPICE, follow that up with some Monte-Carlo analysis, and then hire someone like you to look over the design and tell them where things can be improved (to put it nicely :-) ).

Personally I'm surprised that you seem to be able to get PSPICE-compatible transistor models from the foundaries and aren't instead forced to use HSPICE routinely.

This file:

...has some example MOSIS pricing (from three years ago) on slide 28, which is a useful metric.

About two years ago you might have seen a message where I was looking for Philips UAA2080 replacements (pagers.ru/pagers/philips/UAA2080_5.pdf). We had a high-enough volume project that we kicked around the idea of having someone re-design that chip and getting it made just for us, although we ended up taking a different approach. I've always been curious what the cost of that redesign would have been though -- Just for the analog design part (the sort of thing you do -- no fab costs considered), I have to imagine it would be been >>$100k, and could easily see it hitting >$250k (given the level of complexity)... would you care to venture an opinion? :-)

---Joel

messagenews:g9adnc_4BcF600janZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@web-ster.com...

1) Since your goals are taking shape during the course of the agreement, then at least part of this deal sounds like it should be time and materials, and not fixed cost. I started a 3-mo contract like this back in Jan 2005 (it ended in Jan 2007). The wording we used in the contract was "The contractor shall *work towards* a solution." Hardly something disputable as long as they keep paying you. 2) OTOH, it sounds like you have some reservations. So my advice is always the same: ## Get to know WHO you're dealing with. ## No contract you or anyone else can write makes it worthwhile to do business with someone dishonorable. 3) Here is a clause I've sometimes been glad to have in the agreement: (quote) Black Box: The XYZ project is considered to be a component in a larger system. However, for purposes of design verification and milestone assessment, it is necessary to focus upon the constraints and specifications given within this document rather than to attempt to picture the integration and ramification to the system as a whole. The contractor assumes that an acceptance of this proposal is predicated upon careful review of the specifications herein and a general acceptance that the stand- alone performance of the XYZ project allows the system to function as intended. The contractor is available to consult on details of the broader system function as an addition to this proposal. (end quote)

And, under payment terms: Failure to pay: Contractor shall have the right, without limitation, to transfer or develop for sale any device or invention resulting from unpaid services. (If you're going to include this one, it's usually because you're speculating - developing and delivering technology before receiving full payment)

Frank

Here is the dirt without naming names. Exar employees quit and join Interdesign. They work at Interdesign for a while, then come back to Exar with new, higher level positions. They also bring a few Interdesign employees back with them. Now I don't know who had the technology first, but clearly Exar wanted what Interdesign had. Exar then brought out the "Flexar" array. You need to understand this isn't my thing, so I can't say much about the array technology. I was doing standard products and custom chips while I was there and all this crap was going on.

Regarding direct write lithography, Exar bought Excel (maybe Exel), an EEPROM company. This was how Exar got their old San Jose location on Lundy. Exar bailed out of Sunnyvale for the San Jose location, but kept the epi reactors running at the old facility, then just fired everyone in that part of the business. Now getting back to the direct write, Exel had some deal with US2, which was the American arm of some European company I really can't recall. Their charter was low volume mixed mode chips with direct write. If it worked, I never heard of it. Having watched yet another bit of corporate espionage, I figured it was time to bail before I get dragged into something that smells funny.

My recollection is when Ken Sato of Rohm had his fill of Exar, they had to leave the San Jose faciity. Exar had owned the land in Fremont where they are presently located for a long time. It was originally going to be their fab but the used fab in San Jose was a better deal. Now perhaps separation between Rohm and Exar was in the works for a long time, so they retained the dirt as part of the exit plan.

Lots of usefull data, thanks. I wonder since this seems to be a hot topic are there any usefull/good sample agreements available on the net.

I found another clause I am concerned about: The Contractor shall indemnify the Company in the event of any infringement action by any third party against the Company arising out of the Contractor's willful or negligent use of any patents, copyrights, trademarks, trade secrets, or other confidential and proprietary information as determined by a court of competent jurisdiction Contractor and Company grant each other mutual waivers of incidental and consequential damages. In the event that a claim is unsuccessful, Contractor shall incur no liability.

With all the ridiculous patents out there its easy to step on someone's toes.

What about this one, should that be treated as extra work? Sounds like a potential source of lots of unpaid additional work: All engineering and design work will be warranted for three years from end of completion. During that time, any work that was done incorrectly, or was clearly not in compliance with agreed any/all written specification(s), shall be corrected at no cost.

Mark

The difference between HSpice models and PSpice models is mostly naming convention, and an occasional difference in calculation method... all of which can be fixed with some mild editing...

See "Convert HSpice CMOS Library Files to PSpice CMOS Library Files - Manually" on the Tools page of my website.

I had an automated editor (provided by Cadence) posted there, but removed it because it was junk.

Some "jelly bean" parts can be redone for < $100K. I doubt the UAA2080 would run more than ~ $150K. Processing is cheap, engineering and layout are the majority of the costs.

I'm presently quoting a re-do of my venerable MC1648 with some added fancy features.

I get calls all the time trying to purchase my old chips.

If you have a design need drop me an E-mail. We'll establish an NDA and I can generate some real numbers.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Thanks for the numbers, Jim -- the ballpark estimates are exactly what I was interested; on infrequent occasion we do have customers with enough volume that $100k-$200k isn't completely out of the question.

Most customers have much smaller quantities in mind, though... we have one right now that isn't exactly pleased that there are initially only 100 widgets to spread the $30k plastic molding costs over.

---Joel

Interesting history there -- thanks for posting a bit of the inside scoop!

Isn't it amazing what some customers think things should cost?

I kid you not, I just had a call from a person wanting to know my rates... he needed help with his "little 2222 circuit" ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Yes, it is rather sobering. I can see how it happens though -- people are used to buying laptop computers for $499 retail and don't begin to realize what sorts of quantities are being manufactured to make that happen. (Or even, say, $19 Bluetooth headsets... here you have a complete 2.4GHz frequency-hopping transceiver that, 20 years ago, would have probably cost $19,000...)

In the case of the plastic molds our M.E. tells me they actually have gotten significantly cheaper over the past decade in real dollars due to all the various rapid prototyping technologies that are available today.

Maybe he happens to be independently wealthy and doesn't mind forking over a few thousand to you? :-)

---Joel

[snip]

Damn! I missed my chance. I was kind and referred him to posting his question here ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave