Is this real ? ( Yes, its on topic )

How do they do what? Make up BS marketing hype?

The power savings* and resulting money saved for residential customers improving power factor is minimal. For a business or industrial customer, there are often power factor surcharges. So here, power factor correction can pay off. But residential customers are billed for real power consumption only.

• By improving p.f. the total current is reduced and, as a result, the I^2R losses are reduced. But this would be on the order of a percent or so of total consumption.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
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Don\'t anthropomorphize computers. They hate that.

I see.

Thanks

don

** There are no savings to be had - it's a total scam.

The product is just a box with capacitors in it.

All the claims are fake.

The company is run by crims.

There are quite few just like it in the US and Canada.

.... Phil

"Paul Hovnanian P.E."

** But such boxes of caps wired acros the AC supply permanently does NOT improve the average PF of a residence.

They actually make it worse.

** That box of capacitors likely pulls about 5 to 10 amps continuously.

If some residence did have VA metering and charging, the electricity bill would go through the roof.

..... Phil

** The claims made about it increasing the life of motors and other appliaces is total BS too.

Elsewhere other similar scammers make the same claim, justified by asserting that the heat losses in motors is reduced by around 10-20%.

Of course, there is no such change at all -

cos PFC correction only ever reduces the AC supply current draw.

..... Phil

Right. They'll push it leading if the inductive loads are light.

Yep. But since that's rare (at least in the USA), when I saw "power factor" I smelled BS.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
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Plaese porrf raed befre postng.

Most countries charge domestic users on the real power (total power x cos of the phase angle). The meter here is probably reading the total power. If the power factor improves (phase angle goes down) the real power will remain the same, but the total power will decrease. OK, you are improving the power drawn from the grid (good for the utility company), but you are not improving your bill (you are billed on the real power)..

Example:

Total power = 1W. Phase angle = 45 degrees. Real power = 1 x cos45 = 0.707W

You are billed on 0.707W.

If phase angle improves (to 10 degrees), you will still be billed on 0.707W, but only 0.717W will be drawn from the grid (=0.707/cos10).

Result: less electricty drawn from the grid - good for the utility company, but you are still billed for 0.707W

--
Bill Naylor
www.electronworks.co.uk
Electronic Kits for Education and Fun


"Phil Allison"  wrote in message 
news:78bhh5F1l7ppnU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> 
>> http://www.power-save.com/1200.html
>>
>> How so they do it ??
>
>
> ** There are no savings to be had -  it\'s a total scam.
>
> The product is just a box with capacitors in it.
>
> All the claims are fake.
>
> The company is run by crims.
>
> There are quite few just like it in the US and Canada.
>
>
>
> ....   Phil
>

....ahhh but....if one could *resonate* to the motor inductance...the motor current and voltage would increase.. ..making things worse for the motor and better for line power draw.

Nah, doesn't work out. The supply of course is constant voltage, so for any given device on the line, it doesn't matter what else is connected. Parallel resonance is only true in regards to input power factor. Besides, Q is low (a motor with PF = 0.7 might get Q = 2 or so). And series resonance will only be worse, though you may see a few more volts from what little resonance occurs.

If you supplied the motor from a series inductor, you might see some rise. Of course, that's because the series L resonates with some of the parallel C, forming a series resonant network of arbitrary VAR capacity; turn up the VARs and you can raise motor voltage as high as you'd like. So that's just cheating. ;-)

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Robert Baer"

** Bring in the warders, please...

More Valium nurse......

.... Phil

"Electronworks.co.uk"

** Bollocks.

Mostly there is no phase angle associated with domestic PF.

** Bollocks.

Mostly there is no phase angle associated with domestic PF.

** Bollocks.

Mostly there is no phase angle associated with domestic PF.

** Bollocks.

Mostly there is no phase angle associated with domestic PF.

** Bollocks.

Mostly there is no phase angle associated with domestic PF.

** Piss off you - TOP POSTING f****it.

.... Phil

On a sunny day (Sun, 31 May 2009 00:37:22 +1000) it happened "Phil Allison" wrote in :

HI PHIL, I FOUND HIS POSTING VERY INFORMATIVE, AND AS FAR AS I KNOW CORRECT. Your however seem to be in a sort of loop, if you were using POWER BASIC you could perhaps do better writing:

10 print "** Bollocks." 20 print "Mostly there is no phase angle associated with domestic PF." 30 GOTO 10

It would save you typing, but would not make you more right though.

Hey, do they make power factor correction boxes for 12VDC? Maybe I could reduce the power consumption in my car if I had one.

Then my gas mileage would go up.

:-P

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Hi Allison

Thanks for your educated comments. I think the arguement on the following link explains it all:

I appreciate there is very little phase angle (you are wrong to say No phase angle), but the video post showed the demonstrator using a domestic motor (ie a very inductive load) which will give you a very poor power factor. From your comments, I gather you know this already. Fortunately a typical domestic setup is not made up of domestic motors, so the power factor is not dominated by the domestic motor's properites.

What I was trying to do was explain how you can conduct an honest experiment and get honest answers but that are completely irrelevant to a domestic application and that even if you did have poor power factor, changing it would make no difference to your bill.

I think when explaining to you, I may have to choose my words more carefully.

-- Bill Naylor

Thanks Jan

I appreciate your comments

-- Bill Naylor

Electronic Kits for Education and Fun

ld

You can get those magnets that align the atoms as they pass through the fuel line. They are good for 10% fuel savings. They make those special low loss air filters that are good for 10%. If add that magic stuff the parts store sells it is claimed to be good for 15%. Soon I'll have to stop every so often to drain some extra gas out.

The whole trick is to make the PF worse so the meter runs slower -in theory-. If you open the box you'll find the capacitors are not big enough to influence the PF. Worse, if you have a lot of inductive loads, you'll actually improve the PF and pay more.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
                     "If it doesn\'t fit, use a bigger hammer!"
--------------------------------------------------------------

"Nico Coesel is INSANE "

** This would be hysterically funny - if Nico were not quite serious.

.... Phil

Right. The only thing a device connected in parallel (I'm not addressing VFDs which this is not) can do is to increase the system voltage. Which will reduce motor current. But this isn't sized to produce much of a voltage rise on a residential service.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
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"There\'s something vewy scwewy going on awound here." -- Elmer Fudd