I want to build an LO

Hello the most knowledgeable electronics group on earth!

I am trying to build a few LC oscillators for experimenting with mixers. I do not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and 100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

I have a few RF books and the treatment of oscillator can be one of the following:

1- Too much theory on the analysis of oscillator circuits, phase noise, IMD, etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model. 2- Circuits to build but designed at very specific frequencies with very specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this). 3- Books that give me a design procedure with S parameters but I can't find any S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using. 4- Cookbooks that have the same problem as (2).

Why is it so hard to build an oscillator at an arbitrary frequency?

Reply to
M. Hamed
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Idea 1: find a DIP meter schematic. They typically cover a fairly wide range using plug-in coils i.e. you just need to change the inductor. And it's often a single FET circuit.

Idea 2: You could cover quite a wide range using an unbuffered CMOS inverter (4069UB) with: cap from input to ground; cap from output to ground; inductor from input to output; maybe a resistor in series with the output. You should get a sinusoid at the inverter input. It'll need buffering to drive your mixer.

In both cases you should be able to cover quite a wide frequency range with suitable choices of L and C. You can lash it up on a breadboard.

But the upper frequency limit for the above circuits will be well below 100 MHz. You will need a different circuit for VHF.

Reply to
Andrew Holme

not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and 100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

following:

etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model.

specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this).

S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using.

It's not. A little Colpitts oscillator is easy. Use a bipolar transistor, a jfet, or a gaasfet at higher frequencies.

A rough ballpark for the L and C is to set their reactances to maybe

50 or 100 ohms each at the operating frequency. Use a surface-mount inductor or wind your own.

You don't really need s-params. Just make sure you have plenty of gain-bandwidth in the active device. Subtleties like TC and low phase noise are a little more work.

Wes Hayward and Randy Rhea have good books.

LT Spice should be useful, too.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com 

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom laser drivers and controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro   acquisition and simulation
Reply to
John Larkin

Because oscillator design isn't easy, if you're going to go about it from an engineering perspective, then you need lots of theory. If you're going to go about it from a technician's perspective, then you need a lot of working examples to start with, and a lot of patience.

If you really want to wrap your head around the theory, then grab some books from (2) and (4), and apply what the books from (1) and (3) teach you to analyze the circuits.

I found that "Oscillator Design and Computer Simulation" by Rhea was very helpful. When you get right down to the nitty-gritty, Rhea's book shows you how to break the loop in an oscillator circuit, put it into a simulator (such as LTSpice), and do a sweep on it to analyze its characteristics.

I've also found that whatever magic LTSpice does to be efficient at analyzing switching power supplies must work for oscillators, because it's been very fast and accurate and simulating oscillator start-up.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. 
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. 
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? 

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software 
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and 100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

following:

etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model.

specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this).

any S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using.

--
I think Hamed is asking for a VFO schematic to get him started, not 
for show-off grandstanding. 

Can you help him, or not?
Reply to
John Fields

not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and 100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

following:

etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model.

specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this).

S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using.

With current components, it is no big deal to make a free running oscillator in the 10-100 GHz range.

However, in order to be usable in communication systems, some frequency accuracy is needed.

At MF at 1 MHz a frequency accuracy of 1 % would correspond to 10 kHz (2x5 kHz audio passband). The same accuracy at 10 GHz TV satellite band would correspond to 2-4 channels.

The real question is that it is no problem making a scanner receiver handling the 0-5 GHz frequency range, however making a good receiver or that frequency range is nearly impossible.

Reply to
upsidedown

not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and 100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

following:

etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model.

specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this).

any S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using.

Where did he ask for a schematic?

You think he's asking for a schematic because that's what you would need. WITH all parts values worked out.

not

Where was any grandstanding? I told him what circuit and parts work, how to scale the LC, and added a couple of references. If he wants to discuss it in more detail, I'll be glad to help.

Books (like the ones I mentioned) and the web are full of Colpitts schematics. They mostly just work.

How much help have you contributed so far? Whining is all you can do.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com 

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom laser drivers and controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro   acquisition and simulation
Reply to
John Larkin

Just try to build an amplifier and most times you will get an oscillator.

tm

Reply to
tm

Building an oscillator is easy. Keeping it from drifting around is a different story, but if all you need is something that emits radio frequency most schematics will work if you recalculate the tuning part according to the needed frequency.

I'm a big fan of the negative resistance oscillator made using two jfets, one N and one P channel, or a N jfet and a PNP BJT, called "lambda diode oscillator". It will work from audio frequency to the UHF just by changing the LC circuit. I made my first GDM using that circuit. Look for "lambda diode" in google images.

Reply to
asdf

not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and 100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

following:

etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model.

specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this).

S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using.

I've done a few...

Sinusoidal:

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Multivibrator:

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Phase/Frequency Detectors:

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Patents:

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The 1648 can easily be built with discrete components (as it was breadboarded BC... before CAD and Spice ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85140   Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

I think you might mean 10-100 MHz range.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and 100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

following:

etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model.

specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this).

any S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using.

Geez, Thompson just posted 100% boasting without any pretense at helping. Go rag on him.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

Well, assuming your building a receiver, you're starting your design in the wrong place. Mixers have very specific input level range requirements. Some of the higher level mixers, needed to obtain decent overload and intermodulation performance, require substantial amounts of power to operate. There are also many different types of mixers, ranging from simple D-type flip-flops, to messy double balance diode ring mixers. Mixers also like to see their favorite input and output impedances on every port and over the entire frequency range of operation. When almost the entire performance of the receiver is tied into the mixer, some effort should be directed in that direction.

In short, you need to select a mixer type and design before you can design the local oscillator. That will determine the output level, output impedance, and frequency range of the oscillator. Note the effort by the designer of this board to make sure all 3 ports see 50 ohms: Also, few designs drive a mixer directly from an oscillator because of "pulling" effects, where the mixer load affects the frequency of the oscillator. There is usually an isolation amplifier in between.

What I suggest is that you produce a better description of what you're trying to accomplish. Do the whole system on paper or computah before you begin designing sub-sections. A useful tool is AppCAD: where you can work out the gain distribution, levels, signal handling requirements, and noise figure requirements, before you build something. Incidentally, oscillator noise can be an important specification. If you're building an FM broadcast receiver, with a huge bandwidth, local oscillator noise is not very important. If you're building a SSB (single side band) receiver, close in oscillator noise is critical.

By the time you have the overall design worked out, the individual components can be more easily specified. Your oscillator will have a more specific frequency range, stability requirement, noise requirement, output level requirement, and DC power requirement. You may be able to get away with something plagiarized from a commercial receiver (plenty of schematics online), or you may want to design it from scratch.

Because oscillators are usually designed to a specification, which is seriously lacking. Also, because the oscillator is part of a receiver system, which is also lacking. Once you narrow down the type of oscillator and its approximate characteristics, things will be easier to design, analyze, or copy. Designing a universal oscillator, that works at all frequencies, into any impedance, with any power supply, and has superior noise performance, is just not going to happen.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

do not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and

100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

following:

etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model.

specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this).

any S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using.

rag

Whine, whine, whine. Those DID show schematics.

Simpler schematics (*) in the 'morrow, watching a movie right now.

(*) Something even Larkin could build and make work >:-} ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85140   Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

following:

About 20 years ago I had fun with this:

Air-core coil wound on a pencil, can't remember the fet but nothing special.

No ebay in those days so I just had a DFM. I should hook one up again and see how good/awful it is now I have lots of test kit.

--

John Devereux
Reply to
John Devereux

** A free running oscillator is as accurate as YOU set it.

The real issue is *stability over time* or drift and that is nearly all due to temperature variations.

** With most AM receivers, one tunes the LO to the desired station by ear or the uses of an optical indicator. The allowed error is in the hundreds of Hz. Over time the LO may drift, then one retunes it.
** Communications on VHF, UHF and above pretty much depends on the use of crystal locked oscillators at both ends.

Luckily they were invented long ago.

** Why is that the "real" question ?

Seems like a smelly red fish to me.

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

do not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and

100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

following:

etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model.

specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this).

any S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using.

--
Well, he pretty much exhausted all the other possibilities, so your 
heaping more of the same junk on him as he could find anywhere else is 
hardly going to solve his problem. 

A schematic, it seems to me, would get him the help he's looking for.
Reply to
John Fields

not want to use Crystals, Frequency Synthesis, DDS, etc. Let's say 2 MHz and 100 MHz. I don't know where to start!

following:

etc. No circuits to build. Just demo circuits for illustration, sometimes only the small signal model.

specific components. Very little on how to generalize things into different frequencies. (The ARRL handbook 2010 and Experimental Methods fall under this).

any S parameter files for the devices I'm interested in using.

Maybe I repeat myself: It seems that you need a good book on basic radio design, with the emphasis on practice.

Please get yourself an ARRL handbook . It contains plenty of information for your project and excellent links for more information.

--

Tauno Voipio, OH2UG
Reply to
Tauno Voipio

rag

--- Why?

Just looking at his first link gets the OP a data sheet with a circuit description, schematics, and application notes.

Quite a bit different from, and much more helpful than your bullshit "Keep your eyes on me while I dance about pretending to help." posts.

-- JF

Reply to
John Fields

Operating in that frequency range was a challenge 50 years ago with germanium transistors. The parameter spread was very large, so making a reliable oscillator was hard. To sustain oscillation, the _power_ gain of the active element(s) must be larger than the losses in the resonator and other passive components. This gets hard, when the typical fT for an RF germanium transistor was 40-200 MHz.

These days transistors with much higher fT are available. Even some cheap MMICs have considerable gain up to 5-10 GHz. If the gain is not enough, cascading an other MMIC does not cost much. Of course, at frequencies at UHF and above, lumped LC resonators can not be used, stripline and microstrip constructions are often used.

Reply to
upsidedown

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